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標題: 中國大陸：20多城市紛興建全國地鐵多虧損 [打印本頁]

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-4 12:59 標題: 中國大陸：20多城市紛興建全國地鐵多虧損

http://news.mingpao.com/20110105/cab2.htm

20多城市紛興建全國地鐵多虧損

【明報專訊】除高鐵外，內地城市也出現「地鐵大躍進」。除仍在擴建的北京、上海、天津、廣州、深圳、南京地鐵外，還有20多個城市正在興建地鐵，但調查顯示，全國地鐵幾乎都處於虧損狀態。有學者認為，香港地鐵盈利模式難以在內地複製。

營運不善納稅人埋單

目前正在興建地鐵的城市還有瀋陽、青島、杭州、無錫、成都、昆明等。中央人民廣播電台稱，除大城市外，一些中型城市也紛紛申建地鐵，但報道引述一項調查顯示，除上海地鐵1號線在開通9年後才實現真正盈利外，其他地鐵都處於虧損狀態。

對於內地的「地鐵大躍進」，中國人民大學教授張鳴認為，如果地鐵建成後客流量不大或營運不善，最終埋單的還是納稅人。但中國工程院院士王夢恕則認為，修建地鐵確能夠緩解日益嚴重的城市交通堵塞問題。

港鐵模式難複製

內地時政評論員江德斌指出，香港地鐵是依靠沿線物業開創出「地鐵+房地產」的模式，而且香港人多地窄、市民收入高、地鐵客量穩定，票價亦是亞洲之最，這些是香港地鐵成功的因素，內地具備的城市非常之少。

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-1-4 13:27

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-1-4 13:41 編輯

Very good wor, the Chinese cities have 600 million people, hundreds of million of people will be moving into the cities. This is very good public infrastructure to promote economy and trade. This is much better than each person driving a car.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-4 13:43

Yeah, it's all very good ar mah:

但調查顯示，全國地鐵幾乎都處於虧損狀態

Moron...

-Lik

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-1-4 15:23

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-1-4 15:25 編輯

Yeah, it's all very good ar mah:

Moron...

-Lik
Lik 發表於 2011-1-4 13:43

The intention of investing in the subway is not about making money, but to provide a public service to the general public. Besides, the cost of building the subway system will be amortized over decades. The growth in economic activity along subway lines will reap in great benefits for the society.

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-1-4 15:24

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-1-4 15:26 編輯

The reduction in pollution and increase in convenience far out strip the initial cost.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-4 15:37

唔搞工程，大陸啲官又點搵油水呢？同你講公眾利益？徙氣啦～

-力

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-1-4 16:01

唔搞工程，大陸啲官又點搵油水呢？同你講公眾利益？徙氣啦～

-力 ...
Lik 發表於 2011-1-4 15:37

The fact is that hundreds of millions of people in China use public transportation every day.

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2011-1-4 16:07

本帖最後由 Ovaltine 於 2011-1-4 16:10 編輯

I agree with peter this time, subway is an important infrastructure to lower the ecological footprint. The use of non-petroleum fueled car stock is benefits to the economy and the environment. We should not worry about the financial losses from the PRC government, as this green investment will turn gold when the world is coming down from peak oil. Actually I was in Oregon couple days ago, USA Today had an article about the West Kowloon station constructed by the MTR. US government wants to build lots of subway so they don't continually get addicted by oil, but due to financial problems and property right issues, they just can't get their act together.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-4 16:33

我並唔反對基建，更大力贊同環保。由期是係中國大陸裡面嘅地鐵，收費非常低，對低下階層來講絕對係德政。

但不爭嘅事實係：

1）響國內唔搞工程，啲官又點搵油水呢？
2）如果大型基建係長期蝕本，又或者要好世耐先能夠收資平衡，咁係咪即係有問題呢（特別係預算同營運方面）？而有問題嘅話，係咪應該要解決呢？但唔解決呢啲問題不特只，你仲要繼續不斷咁搞大個問題，咁當中嘅道理又何在呢？咁都唔算反智嘅話，我都唔知仲有乜野好講。

還望高人指點。

-力

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2011-1-4 17:23

1）響國內唔搞工程，啲官又點搵油水呢？
2）如果大型基建係長期蝕本，又或者要好世耐先能夠收資平衡，咁係咪即係有問題呢（特別係預算同營運方面）？而有問題嘅話，係咪應該要解決呢？但唔解決呢啲問題不特只，你仲要繼續不斷咁搞大個問題，咁當中嘅道理又何在呢？咁都唔算反智嘅話，我都唔知仲有乜野好講。
Lik 發表於 2011-1-5 08:33

1) 這完全是陰謀論
2) 人地大陸有錢, 大家最多都係羨慕下好喇, 唔好妒忌.

其實大陸咁有錢, 係唔係應該分d 錢比d 窮人, 話哂都係共產主意丫麻~ 呢個咁既唔派錢共產主意算唔算係名存實亡?

作者: maldini 時間: 2011-1-4 17:34

本帖最後由 maldini 於 2011-1-4 17:36 編輯

Taking the subway is better than riding a bike.

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-4 18:36

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作者: lo_pak 時間: 2011-1-4 19:00

回復 4# peter236

Make sense this time...

作者: Catpiano 時間: 2011-1-4 19:56 標題: (

Doesn't matter 虧損 la.. they hv $$$

People are rich enough to drive their BM/BENZ ar ma ..

(oops.. driver .... ? )

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-5 00:14

照呀力力你咁講，香港三十幾年前都唔應該起地鐵喇！

無記錯嘅話地鐵d銀團貸款還款期長達數十年and票價比搭巴士一d都唔平喎？
fy789 發表於 2011-1-4 18:36

本來今日好能攰，都唔想徙時間來駁你㗎喇。但係你條懵能都硬係要講埋啲咁能低能嘅野...

人地篇野都講到明：

內地時政評論員江德斌指出，香港地鐵是依靠沿線物業開創出「地鐵+房地產」的模式，而且香港人多地窄、市民收入高、地鐵客量穩定，票價亦是亞洲之最，這些是香港地鐵成功的因素，內地具備的城市非常之少。

你發能雞盲、戇鳩鳩就唔該收聲啦～

-力

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2011-1-5 00:47

本來今日好能攰，都唔想徙時間來駁你㗎喇。但係你條懵能都硬係要講埋啲咁能低能嘅野...

人地篇野都講到明 ...
Lik 發表於 2011-1-5 16:14

其實我諗極都唔點解力兄想國內地鐵收支平衡... 想收支平衡, 通常都要加票價, 我就唔係咁想lu. 既然大陸豪得起, 由得佢當係比市民既福利law.

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-5 05:40

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作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-5 10:09

低能兒，

我都話你發雞盲兼戇鳩鳩㗎啦。唔能識字又有理解障礙就唔該坐埋一邊學吓野：

1）人地都講到明，香港地鐵嘅成功係因為人多地窄。知唔知道咩叫做人多地窄呀，契弟？即係 high population density 呀！你大陸多人有有能用咩？人多，但係散開晒嘅話，mass transit 咪好難做得好囉。連呢個最基本嘅概念都想為扭而曲扭曲來駁我，你低能嘅程度真係令人佩服。

2）響大陸，中產果啲早就買晒車啦，仲要一家最少兩架，一架單號牌、一架雙號牌，又點會同你踏地鐵？唔能識國情就唔好出來扮勁。

3）樓價係升緊，仲升得好勁添。但咁同地鐵成功又有能關係呀？人地香港地鐵之所以得，係因為香港地鐵嘅發展係連埋地產項目一齊搞（當然從中又益晒「奶乾奶淨」呢四大地產商，但呢個係另外一個話題），而香港批地就一直都受非常有限嘅控制。但大陸裡面又係咪咁？地鐵嘅發展係咪連埋啲高人口密度嘅樓宇一齊搞？講來講去我地又返到去我以經 disprove 咗你嘅第一點。

你條廢柴就唔好成日要我出來數你、奚落你啦。做得多，我自己一來都唔好意思，二來啲落水狗咁易打，我自己都覺得無癮。

-力

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-5 12:42

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作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-5 13:11

一個話連 London 同 New York 嘅人口物度都話低嘅低能兒，我真係O晒嘴，唔知仲有咩可以同佢講。

-力

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-5 14:17

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作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-5 14:27

你廢up之前唔該就做返多少功課啦。響大陸啲地鐵，發展係一路向低密度嘅地區連同地產項目一切發展，等啲權貴可以從中抽水、大刮特刮，但人口密度高嘅地區卻又唔夠服務。咁又有能用咩？

-力

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-5 16:11

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作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2011-1-5 17:20

一個話連 London 同 New York 嘅人口物度都話低嘅低能兒，我真係O晒嘴，唔知仲有咩可以同佢講。

-力 ...
Lik 發表於 2011-1-6 05:11

國內有好多城市人口密度應該都好高. 小弟只去過北京同廣州, 我覺得同旺角銅鑼灣既人流有得揮! 搞到我心郁郁想o係當地買幾個鋪位收租! (可惜冇銀兩)

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2011-1-5 17:23

回復 Lik

力力，
點解今次唔引述有關你所講嘅野嘅負面新聞報導呢？定係跟本
無證據？

1. 初頭你就話 ...
fy789 發表於 2011-1-6 08:11

力兄根本就係覺得d 貪官抽水... 如果冇貪官抽水, 佢就冇野好講了.
可恨既係大陸抽水事件既發生機會真的好像比較高.

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2011-1-5 17:31

actually, noam chomsky said corruption is beneficial to society, i yet have the intellect to figure this out.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2011-1-5 17:34

actually, noam chomsky said corruption is beneficial to society, i yet have the intellect to figure ...
Ovaltine 發表於 2011-1-6 09:31

huh? corruption is beneficial to society? do you mean triad society?

作者: peter236 時間: 2011-1-5 17:38

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2011-1-5 17:44 編輯

你廢up之前唔該就做返多少功課啦。響大陸啲地鐵，發展係一路向低密度嘅地區連同地產項目一切發展，等啲權貴 ...
Lik 發表於 2011-1-5 14:27

Do you have claim to what you said? Are you an expert of subway routes in Chinese cities? From what I can see in Shanghai they have 20 million people there, and the city has high population density throughout the city, and therefore their subway serve all the high density areas.

Also, cities like Suzhou, Ningbo, Hangzhou, all have millions of people each, and they together with Shanghai are forming a big metropolis with continuous high population density.

In south China, cities like Guangzhou, Foshan, Dongguan, and Shenzhen each have millions of people, and together they have nearly 30 million people and they are forming another big metropolis region with continuous high population density. Therefore, their subway serve all the high density areas.

Similar situation with Beijing, and Tianjin in the Bohai region.

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2011-1-5 22:45

本帖最後由 Ovaltine 於 2011-1-5 22:54 編輯

huh? corruption is beneficial to society? do you mean triad society?
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2011-1-5 17:34

heres a quote from arguebly the most influential intellect living today

My view, for what it's worth, is that Kennedy was probably the most dangerous president we've had. [applause] There was a really dangerous, macho streak there, which was kind of fanatic. A lot of it is coming out now in the coverage of the Cuban Missile Crisis, which is quite revealing. It looks even worse than it looked before. And an awful lot of this willingness to drive the world to total destruction looks like a matter of protecting your macho image. Now, that kind of stuff is really dangerous. It's much better -- the best political leaders are the ones who are lazy and corrupt. It's the ones who are after power - they are the dangerous ones. So the guys who want to watch television and sleep and so on, they are no big problem. I should say the same about corruption. Corruption is a very positive sign of government. You should always be in favor of corruption. If people are interested in enriching themselves or in sex or something like that, then they are not interested in power. And the most dangerous thing is the guys that want power. That's what Kennedy was like, I think. Furthermore, corruption has a way of being exposed for quite simple reasons. When people are corrupt, they are usually robbing other rich people. Therefore they are going to block people and when corruption gets exposed it weakens power. And so that's one of the ways you can defend yourself. The same is true of the evangelicals. If we had evangelicals who were really after power, we'd be in trouble. If all they want is gold Cadillacs and sex and so on, no big problem. That's good.

* Talk titled "Necessary Illusions" at MIT, May 10, 1989 Noam Chomsky

I don't feel the need for senseless bashing of the PRC government, there are enough negative things about them already. But building subway is definitely not one of them, this is a positive investment for the future. As for corruption, I wouldn't worry so much. The problem of China lies upon inequality amongs its people, we need to focus on human rights, access of education for the less fortunate, free health etc etc.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-6 00:08

1.  初頭你就話唔使起，因大陸人口密度唔夠。
2.  依家被我反駁哂你d謬論,又轉移話題話貪官起喺郊區泥順便起樓掠水。
   即係你自己都默認應該起！
fy789 發表於 2011-1-5 16:11

契弟，你唔好成日要我當眾咁落你面好唔好？我做都做到厭喇...

人口密度高嘅舊區，一係就地鐵去唔到。一係已經老早起好，但站太細、人太多，變咗服務同人流比例失衡。而且舊嘅地鐵網絡同地上嘅發展失咗配合，搞到有站嘅地方唔響人流區，但人流區附近就無站。亦即係話，擔地鐵去人流區一係就要行餐死，一係就要出咗地鐵站之後再搭的士。試吓你要去尖東，但最近嘅站只係得旺角，睇吓你又會點？北京地鐵好多站就正正係如此。唔記得廣州定係琛圳亦有同樣嘅問題。

人地倫敦就唔同，舊站舊線路有之餘，新站、新線路亦不斷係咁起。而其中新站、新線路有好多時候有會駁返啲舊站，另到地鐵嘅網絡四通八達，而舊站亦會不斷擴建。雖然咁樣有時候會令到乘客要落多幾層，但服務同人流嘅比例就好好多。

好啦，你響大陸起新線喇，但係就起埋響啲人口物度低嘅地區。美其名就話係連埋地產發展項目來帶旺該區，實際上就係等你啲權貴有工程接，可以從中抽水搵着數。

呢幾樣野，我睇唔到有乜野係 contradictory，更睇唔到我幾時話啲低密度嘅地區應該起 mass transit。

你個低能兒自己有病同有理解能力障礙就唔該你收聲，咪成日徙我時間。

-力

作者: fy789 時間: 2011-1-6 08:24

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