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標題: can seniority staff force exchange day off with staff with less senority?? [打印本頁]

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 14:20 標題: can seniority staff force exchange day off with staff with less senority??

At my work place. We have three people including me working at my shift.
I am in the mid. The senior person wants to exchange day off with me. She asked me first. I said no.
Then she use the union rule and make the manager change the shift.
Both of us work 40hrs per work. does she have that right??
From what i know union rule only guarnantee she get the first place to have the 40hr (aka largest block). Is day picking allow??

I called the union and leave voice but havnt get any reply. Manager and payroll person dont know the rule. Any help would be great.

Thank you.

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-1-24 14:26

In my situation, the manager can change my shift without giving me any reason but must acknowledge me before 3pm if they want to change my following day shift. Nothing can be change for the next day after 3pm

作者: 快樂牛郎 時間: 2011-1-24 14:35

screw unions

作者: an00 時間: 2011-1-24 14:47

no, ppl with high seniority gets what they want on the preference sheet that they filled at the beginning of the quarter, if they want a different day off they can only try to request it, but has no right to force u to switch

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-1-24 14:51

take a sick day off then

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-24 14:51

Given that you work in a unionized environment, you must have a CBA somewhere, right? Read up on the rules yourself, and be ready to ask your union steward for clarification. Don't forget that if you disagree with what your steward says, you can also grieve the decision and have the case taken to the higher up.

But be mindful of how your relationship with the old fart coworker will go. But if the senior old fart is doing this to you first, I don't see any reason why you can't play by the book either.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 15:24

an00: the manager said since both of us have vacation day next week. it will start second week of feb. and it is switch by force.

LIK: steward is off today. and the rule book is at work. so i am out of luck until i go to work tonight. and i have to face that senior staff.

we have the same day off for 3years now. and i dont know how long she have this working schedule for. but suddenly she want to change. this will completely screw up my other schdule too.

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 15:27

sheep: sick day doesnt work la. the old lady want to switch schedule with me. not for a week.

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-1-24 15:33

sheep: sick day doesnt work la. the old lady want to switch schedule with me. not for a week.
cllo 發表於 2011-1-24 15:27

you mention you are a gang of three, how about the newest one?
He or she can take the shift?

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 15:35

sheep: the way she want to change doesnt affect the other guy. just affact me.

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-1-24 15:41

回復 10# cllo

then do as what Lik suggest

作者: Nam 時間: 2011-1-24 18:23

等我依個俾工會人烚足兩年嘅人答你啦！

係:唔得！

Depends on which local, but it is up to the manager to determine the vacation rule and it should be reasonably first come first serve. This vacation thing happen at my office freaking every year.

What our manager does is : 1) if two persons who has same job role, then if person A took the same day last year, the person B will entitle to take it (doesn't matter seniority)

2) If there are 3 people working in the similar case, then same theory, whoever that request day off has the right; given that person who request day off first didn't take the same day last year.

My sugguestion to you is talk to steward is useless; I would contact HR and union chair. Write an email to HR, cc manager, union chair and steward. That way , your case will be stronger because steward love to BS but once it goes up to chair; they will take it seriously!

作者: playingtoy 時間: 2011-1-24 18:26

I think, in terms of psychological impact, that (other) person you've just mentioned made you feel you right is being confronted and overrode. Whether she is doing that by the book, or simply with seniority, it really is the same nature, that she believes she has more right than you do. In a situation like this, I myself usually endure whatever negative energy is being projected onto myself. And after all, these things happen for a reason, and sometimes took me a long time to see through the cause of actions which seems to be ... so ... irrational

作者: playingtoy 時間: 2011-1-24 18:30

Once you have saved up enough negativity in you, the righteousness is going to be displayed, all over you, on your face & every single move you partake. At that point there will be no turning back, but that YOU ARE RIGHT

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 23:30

[attach]10743[/attach]Attached is the CBA.
She quote 8.05(e) to the manager.

However, looking at the whole section. I fail to see how a seniority person can take someone else (aka me) day off.
from what I understand is the manager have to offer the seniority to have assignment shift equal in lenght not picking the day.

Also this old lady asked if I want to switch days off with her. last week. and I said no.

and now she quote some stupid union rule.......

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-24 23:31

Attached is the CBA.
She quote 8.05(e) to the manager.

However, looking at the whole section. I fai ...
cllo 發表於 2011-1-24 23:30

the text blocked by lyk label say "equal in length"

作者: playingtoy 時間: 2011-1-25 14:59

哈哈，祝你好運

作者: sheep 時間: 2011-1-25 15:04

家家有本唔同的經

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-25 15:41

so any take on the rules????

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-25 15:46

Nam's suggestion of getting HR (as well as the union steward) involved is certainly a good one, but I am not sure if it would be wise to go to the union chair right away. I would assume that the union chair will simply delegate or refer you back to the shop steward as the first step, and you'd only get to him (the union chair) as the case escalates.

I think the senior staff is thinking that her "day off" is part of the shift schedule, and thus the seniority rules apply. Depending on how shifts are assigned at your work place, she may or may not be correct in her thinking. It would kind of depend on how your manager and your union rep interpret the rule la.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-25 15:52

Lik: i been working for almost three years and both me and the senior staff schedule have never change. which is one of the reason i actually stay with the job.

and my manager is not taking any part of it. cause she afraid to deal with the union. me and my supervisior (GM and controller love her, but shes on vacation, i know bad timing) take that the rule only apply to getting the 40hrs of work not day off.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-25 16:13

Sigh... I hope things go well for you la. And don't forget, if you are not happy with the ruling, make sure you grieve it. That is how the game is played, and there is nothing wrong with standing up for your rights, esp when what you do is entirely within the rules.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-25 17:52

dam. stupid manager not doing anything. just letting whatever the old staff and union say.
and the union lady call me, saying this is how it is. senority have the right to pick shift.
but she caught me at a bad time, so i can fight the rule at that time.
but according to 8.05(a) "employer must offer and assign the longest shifts to employees with the most seniority." not assign the longest shift choice by the employees with the most seniority.

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-26 00:10

can someone help me define "the employer will make every reasonable effort to apply the principles of seniority to the assignment of shifts which are equal in length." from that 8.05(e)

will you take the principles of seniority as with in context of section 8.05 shifts by seniority.
or
will you think general principles of seniority.

thanks ppl.

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-31 17:01

so here is the news. the union still saying thats seniority have right to pick shift.

she even go as far as saying it is not part of the Collective agreement and this is how seniority works.
at the end, she basicly cut me off by saying she have to go to a meeting and cant chat with me.
she did mention about past practice. but i didnt get a chance to ask when what what those examples are.
I did get a chance to quote one section. "in situations other than emergencies, the scheduled employees are entitled for fourty-eight hours notice of any change in their repective work schedules." than i said acorrding to that. employer have the final say in anything scheduling.
but the union lady try to say that rule apply in case of someone is sick, schedule need to be change. blah blah blah. and then to run away by saying she have meeting to go to.

so i know base on the collective agreement seniority doesnt have right to pick shift. but how much power does past practice have. past practice could be use to rule thing that isnt stated on the agreement, but what if something that is on the agreement.
like the one i quoted. "in situations other than emergencies, the scheduled employees are entitled for fourty-eight hours notice of any change in their repective work schedules." that would basicly blow past practice of senority can pick shift out of the water. if i intend to use it as one of my fighting points.

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-31 17:06

btw what step should i take to do this now. since the union rep of our hotel dont want to talk to me no more.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-31 19:30

First of all, I would try contacting the union rep again (but in writing, say email), and get him to put his words in writing. Additional, I would also ask for clarification on what your options are should you want to proceed further. As your union representation, even though his explanation might be unsatisfactory to you, he is still obligated to provide you with the information you need to proceed further.

If you are still looking to escalate the issue, I think the next step beyond your union rep / shop steward is the union chair at your workplace. You can bring the issue directly to his attention, mentioning that you have already discussed the matter with your union rep. You might also want to get him to put something in writing -- again, I think email might be easier to solicit than something written on paper.

After that, if the informal resolutions aren't working, I think the next step is filing a formal complain. If an official ruling comes back and you are still unsatisfied, I think you can still file for grievance on the ruling and have a tribunal look at the issue. But beyond the filing of a formal complain, I think the specific rules and procedures would depend on the CBA or the union.

One unfortunate reality is, when your union rep doesn't agree with your view, there is a good chance that it'll turn into a long and drawn out ordeal. Coworkers related or unrelated to the incident might also start taking sides (although the smart ones will stand clear of the issue), and your relationship with the coworker in question will very likely deteriorate regardless of how the issue plays out. So you have to consider whether escalation is worth your trouble and the consequences.

Good luck with your decision la.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-1-31 20:02

the problem is the union rep is responding to the matter with things that wont hold up in court, like "this is how seniority works", "not all rule need to be listed in the CBA for it to apply" (aka this case.), "past practice without examples", and etc. i would think everyone will be unsatisfactory with those answer, if those are to be used against them.

i cant believe i pay all those union due to pay for this kind of people.

anyway, she did say she will send me a letter (snail mail. seriously.). I will have to wait for that and see what happen.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-1-31 20:16

It's a good that the she will send you something in writing. Should you decide to proceed further with your complaint, the stuff written in black and white will likely carrry more weight than anything she said.

Keep us posted, and I wish you good luck la.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-2-1 23:26

update.

So this is the letter recvied by my manager today.
"Re; Scheduling Preference
The union understands that XYZ empolyee has requested a change in her work shifts. The union writes to you to honour her seniority in choosing her shifts, as per the collective agreement Articles 8 and 9, and as per past pracice."

Seriously, thats all the union rep wrote. This is after the fact I have written to request a formal answer from her.
espeically, since on the phone the rep did admit to me already that it is not in articles 8 and 9. and as per practice. there is no examples given by her to support the ruling.

作者: Lik 時間: 2011-2-1 23:49

I don't know exactly how your union is gonna interpret this, but I see how the union rep is trying to spin this -- she is trying to spin this matter into "more senior staff gets first pick in shifts", and by extension of priority shift picking, that also determines when the senior staff's vacation days are.

There is certainly logic behind that line of reasoning. IIRC, you were saying that previously, work hours were picked as a single, entire 40-hour block. Should you choose to continue fighting it, I think you should focus on this past, long standing practice of picking an entire 40-hour block and use it to dispute the union rep's past practice claim.

But if the union ruling determines that shift picking doesn't necessarily mean choosing single batch block of hours, then I think you'd be more or less out of luck.

-Lik

作者: cllo 時間: 2011-2-2 00:02

thats what i think too. the union rep (very rude i would say) is try to say senior staff get first pick.
but base on the agreement. they get first to assignemnt the longest shifts. they can decline a longer shift for a shorter available shift. as article 8.05(a) in the attactment eariler. NOT FIRST PICK.
and a later article. "in situations other than emergencies, the scheduled employees are entitled to forty-eight hours notice of any change in their respective work schedules" and "this provision is intended to provide scheduling flexibility when business needs change."
my understanding of that article is employer can change schedule by their need. seniority doesnt apply. I think this is why they left out the casue "seniority can pick shift", which is part of a older collective agreement. To avoid conflict between the two cause.

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