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標題: 學歷何價？過來人經驗之談（一） [打印本頁]

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-24 10:25 標題: 學歷何價？過來人經驗之談（一）

話說前幾日大C父打電話同我講佢好後悔當年冇咩關心我嘅學業，大學畢業都冇閒出席，覺得錯過咗我人生一個好大嘅階段。

我又唔係氹佢，不過我真心覺得no big deal，因爲我自己都差啲唔想去畢業禮。識得大C姐嘅人都知，我係果啲神龍見首不見尾嘅人。去party也好，返工也好，返學也好，我做晒我要做嘅嘢我就撇，頭也不回。我唔會眷戀個結尾，逗留等運到磨爛席。我覺得過程就係一個階段，個ceremony對我嚟講唔係太有價值。

尤其而家周街都係大學生，畢到業都唔代表係尖子。畢咗業又好多時都係繼續讀其它嘢，所以都唔代表係學業嘅終結。大學畢業同以前form 5畢業心態上冇咩唔同，所以我叫我老豆唔洗想太多。

雖然講到大學學位好唔值錢，但係依然好多學生好恨入大學。又話説大C姐個表弟係應屆考生，雖然唔係同佢好close，但係以我所知佢一向紀錄都麻麻。但係又俾我想像中考得好，因為佢考高過３３２２最低標準噃！

嗱，問題就嚟啦，你考唔到３３２２就諗都唔洗諗啦，你唔搵其它課程讀就疊埋心水搵嘢做啦。但係你考到，而且高少少（可能係３３３２／３３３３咁先算），喺學生眼中，喺家長眼中，梗係覺得搏得過啦。咁但係其實搏唔搏到呢......下回分解!

- 大C姐

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2012-9-24 12:35

what is ３３２２?

Well, a bachelor's degree is really nothing here. Most of my coworkers are Masters or PhDs.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-24 12:50

I don't know the situation in HK, probably more competitive there....

My experience is that, I have seen coworker who barely high school grad.
So for 2 people working in the same position, one with college diploma, and he. He gets way less than the other person because he starts off much much lower. (because of his education). So I would say without degree or diploma it is much harder to catch up with the avg salary level of a particular job, not to mention it may be harder to get a job in the first place. I'm not saying that person is not capable of the job, just it's reality that he gets much less because of his education.

I think here, it values diploma (say from BCIT) equally as degree (maybe in most jobs, I won't say all). Sometimes, PhD is over qualified.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-24 14:09

what is ３３２２?

Well, a bachelor's degree is really nothing here. Most of my coworkers are Maste ...
布小熊發表於 2012-9-24 12:35

３３２２係新中學制四科主要科目嘅大學最低入學分數，分別係中／英／數／通識。呢個係水平參照，棄用以前ABCD拉curve制度。即係話，假設你係全級最高分但係你成績都未必一定有５，可能你只係考啱６０％，所以佢哋俾３分你，果年就冇人攞４分或5分。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-24 16:10

what is ３３２２?

Well, a bachelor's degree is really nothing here. Most of my coworkers are Maste ...
布小熊發表於 2012-9-24 12:35

咁你即係講緊大學定讀書冇價值先？你唔讀大學又讀唔到masters/ phd。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-24 16:18

I don't know the situation in HK, probably more competitive there....

My experience is that, I have ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-24 12:50

呢個case我就想探討多啲，因爲如果你係做醫生，做會計，做科學研究，你唔係大學畢業考唔到牌就直頭唔洗講啦。

但係一般office工，係唔係一張沙紙定薪水呢？定係同工同酬，紅褲子一樣可以睇齊？

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-24 17:13

回復 6# 大C姐

even same position, there's always a "range" of salary la...
lower education...get the lower end of the "range"...

and often...the person with less education is willing to take much lower $ to start with...
so makes him/her even harder to "climb up".

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-24 17:41

加拿大真係吾洗入大學，讀個general arts or general sci 真係無銀用，加拿大做勞工比大學生人工高好多好多，如果是平凡人，高不成低不就的，無謂哂錢哂時間入大學。入BCIT，做水電，渣巴士，做裝修，整車，郵差，做清潔，湊仔，裝cable等等等...都比一般大學生人工高很多

作者: FiChai 時間: 2012-9-24 19:01

回復大C姐

even same position, there's always a "range" of salary la...
lower education...get th ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-24 17:13

Range of salary might be a guideline of starting point, final salary is according to actual performance.

作者: FiChai 時間: 2012-9-24 19:02

加拿大真係吾洗入大學，讀個general arts or general sci 真係無銀用，加拿大做勞工比大學生人工高好多好多 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-24 17:41

So true........

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2012-9-24 19:08

大學畢業之後, 只係第一份工叫做睇過下張證書, 之後都冇乜點reference 過了.
而家做我呢一行, 高學歷不太重要, 所以都冇心再讀上去, 除非諗住轉一轉career path 先諗lu.

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-9-24 19:24

In the end, we are all just peasants in this world manipulated by the privileged elites.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2012-9-24 19:54

In the end, we are all just peasants in this world manipulated by the privileged elites.
Ovaltine 發表於 2012-9-25 11:24

話唔定, 遲D 你都可以做果D privileged elites 呢~

作者: Prelude 時間: 2012-9-24 20:29

本帖最後由 Prelude 於 2012-9-24 20:31 編輯

From my experience, there are differences between co-workers who has a degree and who finished some diploma.
A person (A) who finished 2 years of BCIT program and started working for 2 years, vs
a person (B) who finished 4 years of BSc and just started working in the same company in the same team.

The person (A) usually get a higher salary than (B) at least for the first few years, but (B) has better opportunities for advancement in long run such as team lead, supervisor, or management level.  Not to say (A) won't get to that level, but when it comes to decision from high management comparing the two , A has 10 years of experience and B has 8 years of experience + degree, the person B has better chance.

I have been observing the mentality differences between a diploma and a bachelor for a while.  In general, a diploma holder is relatively short sighted in projects and decisions.  A bachelor is relatively more open minded and make a better long-run and overall planning.

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2012-9-24 20:40

咁你即係講緊大學定讀書冇價值先？你唔讀大學又讀唔到masters/ phd。
大C姐發表於 2012-9-24 04:10 PM

I am saying that getting a university degree will just your foot into a job. It depends on the field too. I just wished that I had taken a break on my work life and did my master a few years back. It's a little hard to do so now.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 09:18

加拿大真係吾洗入大學，讀個general arts or general sci 真係無銀用，加拿大做勞工比大學生人工高好多好多 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-24 17:41

好同意！

我喺呢度識唔少做水電，整電梯，唔係自己生意，都搵６０K+一年㗎，真係好過好多做文職！

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 09:24

From my experience, there are differences between co-workers who has a degree and who finished some ...
Prelude 發表於 2012-9-24 20:29

你知唔知點解B最後可以升到職？因為啲高層絕大部分都係大學畢業或以上呀嘛，當然會prefer讀過大學嘅人啦。

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-25 10:23

你知唔知點解B最後可以升到職？因為啲高層絕大部分都係大學畢業或以上呀嘛，當然會prefer讀過大學嘅 ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-25 09:24

係公司做左十年八年，我吾覺得d老細甘得閒睇反你十年前讀過咩書

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-25 10:36

回復 18# ricrick

一啲啲啦。有啲老細會介意架。如果做senior，middle manager, 無cert都ok。
但係講到啲VP，director嘅位，無張cert真係爭啲。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-25 10:40

回復 9# FiChai

yeah, the person with great performance deserve higher % raise. But if he/she starts way lower, it's still harder to catch up.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 13:27

係公司做左十年八年，我吾覺得d老細甘得閒睇反你十年前讀過咩書
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-25 10:23

你讀咩可能冇咩緊要，重點係有定冇。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 13:30

回復 FiChai

yeah, the person with great performance deserve higher % raise. But if he/she st ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-25 10:40

但係你覺得起薪點真係差咁遠咩？

我唔覺得大學畢業第一份工搵多好多錢噃。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-25 13:47

回復 22# 大C姐

我講嗰個case extreme啲，佢中學都未畢業。第一份工可能真係minimum wage，或者多少少。做咗幾年有機會轉field，老闆睇你之前嗰份工係得咁多，俾多少少你都lu飯應啦。同其他team member咪一定有個距離囉。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-25 13:52

但係你覺得起薪點真係差咁遠咩？

我唔覺得大學畢業第一份工搵多好多錢噃。 ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-25 13:30

其實咩係高咩係低？如果有做過co op嘅，畢業第一份工都可以揾五萬一年，算唔算高？低？定係中等？

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 13:57

其實咩係高咩係低？如果有做過co op嘅，畢業第一份工都可以揾五萬一年，算唔算高？低？定係中等？ ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-25 13:52

$50KCAD算好高！第一份fulltime噃。

好多entry level工都係$35K-$40K㗎咋，尤其專業人士，起薪點超低。

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-9-25 15:31

[youtube]ktNK67M8hkw[/youtube]

Education as a selection of obedience and discipline?

Most Asians are just opportunisitic, they see education as an opportunity to accumulate wealth, but if you look for the billionaire Asian businessmen, many are does not have univeristy degree.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-25 15:47

Education as a selection of obedience and discipline?

Most Asians are just opportunisitic, they s ...
Ovaltine 發表於 2012-9-25 15:31

呢個你就錯啦，冇香港人覺得讀書會變富豪。啲家長要啲仔女入大學只係買個保險，覺得多張cert多個degree就多個機會，工作上有利無害。

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-9-25 21:16

本帖最後由 Ovaltine 於 2012-9-25 21:26 編輯

Most parents see college or university as a path to paradise, in which is not the case. Money has become our official religion, industrial civilization has created an illusion that if we take certain initiatives, we will have success. That path is pretty narrow for us, go to college, get a degree, get a 9 to 5, get married, get ahead by accumulating the most wealth, have children and die. Does the student these days have time to think what they want in life? Or are we just part of someone else's plan?

Here is my story, I have recently gone by to college to take a few courses. The first few weeks I demostrated the usual exuburance of a returning student, as week goes by, the intellectual curiosity dwindles. I used to read an hour a day leisurely, but due to the college cirrculem, I am unable to do this anymore. I am forced to cram my brain with knowledge and the lack of interest. I am sure many feel the same when going to school, but none take a stand, why? Because media and our parents tell us if we can go through with education, we can be qualified for society. In the end, we are a bunch of sheeps being herded like livestocks.

作者: Look4chrisng 時間: 2012-9-26 08:17

回復 28# Ovaltine

Someone force you to go back to school. I can think of many many classes I want to take, but just don't have the money and time.

Why not take only classes you want, something related to your readings you have been doing on your own?

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2012-9-26 09:11

ammm. I think I missed the topic or at least what the OP intended to.
If 學歷何價, means how much money you can make with certain level of education, then I don't really know. It really depends.
For me value of education is a lot more than a job or a pay cheque. But some people learn better from school, some more "street smart". So the "value added" depends on who you are.
For myself, I am looking forward to a day that I can afford (time and money-wise) to go back to school and learn something new.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-26 10:05

Most parents see college or university as a path to paradise, in which is not the case. Money has be ...
Ovaltine 發表於 2012-9-25 21:16

我覺得Ovaltine呢一番話道出好多時下o靚仔心聲，＂讀書求分數，讀完又唔學而置用，都唔知讀嚟做乜！＂

OK，你都講你自己係returning student，你都已經諗清諗楚先決定返去校園。對我嚟講只有兩個原因：
１）為興趣，咁你就可能take錯科啦，原來唔係你鍾意讀嘅嘢。
２）為工作，咁你要進升機會就要付出㗎啦！你估咁多人鍾意讀會計呀，咁你要做呢份工就要讀而且prove到你有咁嘅能耐。

所以我覺得年青人睇嘢放遠啲。幾千年來，做工都係辛苦㗎啦！你有幾何聽到＂我做份工好嘆，我唔係好洗付出㗎咋。＂唔辛苦點得到回報？個個做工為興趣咪走晒去做part time model , PR , 做designer囉......　倒頭來咪又係發現興趣唔可以當飯食呢個道理！

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-26 10:17

ammm. I think I missed the topic or at least what the OP intended to.
If 學歷何價, means how much mo ...
布小熊發表於 2012-9-26 09:11

呢個我會open to interpretation。有人覺得學歷價值等如搵到幾多錢，有人覺得學歷價值在於培養內涵同修養，有人覺得學歷價值係知識上嘅追求...

當然我係覺得以上所有（可能仲有其它）價值觀係唔衝突嘅，我有權為錢為內涵為知識去進修，亦有可能我淨係為錢去考一個牌，為知識去上一個course，為個人修養去讀一個課程。

我覺得過程都係人生一個亮點，不過咁貴去買一個體驗，值唔值就見人見智啦。

作者: ACC-HE 時間: 2012-9-26 11:20

大C姐果然係大C姐

開過thread都唔同啲，好鬼insightful。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-26 17:08

大C姐果然係大C姐

開過thread都唔同啲，好鬼insightful。
ACC-HE 發表於 2012-9-26 11:20

梗係啦，我唔係淨係空想㗎，我覺得一個成功嘅平台在於互動。講啲嘢要有見地得嚟又要得到其他人同感，可以話係雅俗共賞！

如果隨意講一大堆自己思想，又唔要人哋意見，就不如old school啲，攞本簿寫詩寫日記放晌床下底好過啦!

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-26 17:43

你的logic有問題，post自己野，同唔聽人意見係無衝突
掉轉黎，我又可以聽人意見但吾post野
我又可以唔聽人意見又唔post野

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-26 17:55

你的logic有問題，post自己野，同唔聽人意見係無衝突
掉轉黎，我又可以聽人意見但吾post野
我又可以唔聽人 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-26 17:43

post自己野同唔聽人意見有衝突!

如果你淨係想人睇你寫嘅嘢又唔俾人回應，你寫blog再disable comment function囉。呢個係論壇，老友聊天呀，excuse me。

如果個個都話＂我post自己嘢，你唔明我你收聲，鍾意睇就睇唔明就罷，我唔係要你嚟回應批評我！＂我有我空想，你有你空想，咁其實冇咩必要放上網？

當然你後面果兩句好啱，冇嘢想講你有權唔回應。廢話最好唔好回添！

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-26 18:01

我覺得Ovaltine呢一番話道出好多時下o靚仔心聲，＂讀書求分數，讀完又唔學而置用，都唔知讀嚟做乜！ ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-26 10:05

你甘諗真係膚淺，可知道世上有多少人為理想放棄一切的高尚情操

興趣不是不可搵食，和所有工一樣，最重要睇自己係吾係有料到

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-26 18:11

本帖最後由大C姐於 2012-9-26 18:27 編輯

你甘諗真係膚淺，可知道世上有多少人為理想放棄一切的高尚情操

興趣不是不可搵食，和所有工一樣，最重 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-26 18:01

話人膚淺之前請看上文下理

甚麼是興趣？你自顧唔打人工或許（都其實冇咩可能）可以興趣當飯食。你要人請你打工，你有冇權話＂我淨係做我想做果啲工作，果啲悶呀煩呀難搞果啲唔好預我！＂呢個不設實際。

就算你係自顧，用＂興趣＂做生意先算。你開舗賣精品，賣首飾，一樣要受客人氣！你幫人影相，收咗人訂你病都要頂硬上同人影婚紗相啩？

工作態度不能＂恨撈唔恨做＂，每個工作或多或少都有興趣成份，但係心態上一定要能屈能伸，要有serve人嘅態度先賺到人哋袋裡面啲錢。

講，係好動聽，為理想放棄一齊嘅高尚情操。除非你打風流工啦，賺幾多唔至在，咁你講得通嘅，你可以興趣當飯食。

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2012-9-26 21:21

post自己野同唔聽人意見有衝突!

如果你淨係想人睇你寫嘅嘢又唔俾人回應，你寫blog再disable comment fun ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-27 09:55

POST 得出來, 當然是想比人知自己既心態, 亦都預左一定有人有意見.
意見就一定會睇, 但總有D 唔ARM聽, 咁又唔代表唔比你回應架WOH, 睇開D 啦...

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-26 22:38

講返讀書，我都係以實際為主。如果一科我好有興趣但係好難搵食，同另一科無咁有興趣但係容易搵到工，我都會選後者。日後賺到錢，夠生活，有機會咪重返校園為興趣而讀都未遲啦。

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2012-9-26 23:17

講返讀書，我都係以實際為主。如果一科我好有興趣但係好難搵食，同另一科無咁有興趣但係容易搵到工，我都會 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-27 14:38

很明顯你並不是80後.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-27 00:13

回復 41# mcjohnjohn

我先無咁笨話俾人聽自己係咩十後

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-9-27 00:40

本帖最後由 Ovaltine 於 2012-9-27 00:54 編輯

回復 40# fibbi

Interesting thought, I bet you think kids with ideals are too simple sometimes naive, I understand that money is power, when you enter the workforce, you just try relentlessly to climb the social hierarchy. As peasants, you will always lose this game, there will always be someone who are younger, faster and stronger who can take your place. My doctrine is you can't lose if you don't play. I always let people around me know that, I get a certain respect for this, my parents take it very hard though. I just don't want to be part of this mass propagnda, mass education, mass media system where they brain-wash you into oblivion. Capitalism is like catching machine hares in a maze, when you succeed, there is more to catch. Very tiring.

Actually it is the intolerance and bigotry from the industrial people that I come to hate, their assertiveness think their way is the best and only way. I am actually in search of this egalitarian paradise, and found it is only prevalent in hunter-gatherer society. Industrial society with it's social caste system is actually democracy branded as feudalism. Our civilization is moving way to fast, it is growing wide in vastness rather than testing the length of time. We are sprinting our way into a brick wall, rather than slowly maneuvering our human vessel.

This bring us to the new question: To conform or not to conform.

[youtube]7uRxo3FoUKU[/youtube]

[youtube]zesjqoVHUKI[/youtube]

Listen to the 毛里求斯 turtle part.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-27 08:22

講返讀書，我都係以實際為主。如果一科我好有興趣但係好難搵食，同另一科無咁有興趣但係容易搵到工，我都會 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-26 22:38

我自己都係咁諗，我知好多人會disagree，但係我一定唔會喺大學花錢去學＂興趣＂。依家資訊爆炸嘅年代，有咩知識唔可以自己搵，自己讀？就算要搵老師教，例如某啲科學或語文，都用不着讀一個４年制嘅degree。如果只係想對知識上追求，唔需要一張cert去證明，俾便個睇啫？

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-27 08:35

本帖最後由大C姐於 2012-9-27 08:37 編輯

回復 fibbi

Interesting thought, I bet you think kids with ideals are too simple sometimes na ...
Ovaltine 發表於 2012-9-27 00:40

聽落好有hippies思想。

我覺得每個人都要對社會有建設，以呢個社會上亦一定有工作係厭惡性。幾千年嚟都一定有人做清潔，做殯儀，做勞工...　咁但係如果每個做呢類工嘅人都憤世嫉俗，對資本主義社會懷恨，咁好難過日子。

而事實上亦唔係所有清潔嬸嬸都唔開心，佢哋好多都有愛錫佢哋嘅家人，關心佢哋嘅朋友同事，照顧佢哋嘅鄰居。當你接受咗工作只係工作，其實唔一定要好苦咁生活。

[youtube]70gCdNUv6Vo[/youtube]

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-27 14:04

回復 43# Ovaltine

I don't think kids with ideals are naive at all. I admire them. But I am not one of them and I don't want to be one of them. This is just not what I'm looking for in life. I prefer a "balance". Work+Life balance. I need work, because it provides my basic needs, if not more. I want to persue my interest in some way. So I'd choose a job that I'm interested in, to a certain degree. And on the side I do what I'm interested in, for example, card making. I'm happy.

I don't believe in going extreme is good, in either direction. Too much work for $ that's slave and no life. Too much lay back and no work that's also boring and to me. And it's just meaningless (to the society as a whole).

just my two cents.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-27 15:31

我自己都係咁諗，我知好多人會disagree，但係我一定唔會喺大學花錢去學＂興趣＂。依家資訊爆炸嘅年 ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-27 08:22

就算返學校讀都唔等於要讀四年嘅，讀一兩個course，作為elective，未嘗不可。喺學校讀同自修又未必一樣。喺學校讀會有機會做project，自己就唔會。又例如想樂器，自修學識睇譜唔難，但係你唔會知道你彈嘅指法啱唔啱。

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-27 15:40

話人膚淺之前請看上文下理

甚麼是興趣？你自顧唔打人工或許（都其實冇咩可能）可以興趣當飯食。 ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-26 18:11

你又前設興趣=無態度？
又將興趣=無正經

我知你想講咩，你應該用發夢來形容果d不設實際的人，隨口up，什麼都可以是興趣的人
但真正對某事有興趣的人，是有熱誠，會花盡心力心思去投入鑽研
可知道有人因興趣變得極度專業，比任何人都精

當然，我的前設是有料到的人才可談興趣

作者: ricrick 時間: 2012-9-27 16:13

講反學歷
如果你是父母，你明知自己仔女高不成，底不就，但剛剛有能力入到大學讀general studies
你明知加拿大普通大學生搵吾到錢，你會吾會叫佢吾好入大學，去讀D技能既野，吾好哂錢哂時間

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-9-27 16:14

你又前設興趣=無態度？
又將興趣=無正經

我知你想講咩，你應該用發夢來形容果d不設實際的人，隨口up，什 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-27 15:40

點講呢...興趣可以係動力或靈感囉，但係工作都係絕大部分係講現實。

OK，我有個朋友喺呢邊１０年前已經好鍾意研究健康食品，有機嘢食等等，咁畢業返咗香港就開始做呢類食品嘅代理。你問佢對自己嘅事業滿唔滿意，當然係由自己興趣出發先有靈感去做呢門生意。但係你問佢呢個生意是否個人興趣，就一定唔係囉！你要day to day做１０萬樣瑣碎嘢，其實去到生意果part已經係同健康食品冇咩關係，佢賣屎塔都係要追數，發單，check shipment，出糧...　講到尾，出嚟搵食好難講興趣點都要面對人（難頂嘅客／伙記），要對人就一定複雜。興趣對我嚟講係鍾意幾時做就幾時做，唔使同人交代。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-9-27 17:14

回復 49# ricrick

有一技旁身，無問題喎。我反而怕個仔女話去學藝術，難搵工，條路會難行啲囉。
再諗深一層，如果我讀書唔叻係因為我對嗰科無興趣，點樣可以發掘到對嗰科嘅興趣？嗰個先係root cause。因為就算讀啲技能嘢，都可以讀得唔好，都可以無興趣？

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-9-27 23:14

[youtube]Fx_EEfKUouY[/youtube]

People might accuse me of being a misanthorpe, but I don't see productivity in society as merit. Actually theres is a character in Generation Kill, this US army TV show produced by HBO about the Iraq war, this Latin American militant went to college, got a diploma, and ripped it all up, he comment, he doesn't need a certificate from the White Man to tell him he is worthy of society.

作者: Ovaltine 時間: 2012-10-2 03:51

回復 Ovaltine

I don't think kids with ideals are naive at all. I admire them. But I am not o ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-9-27 14:04

Extremism is great contrary to common misconception, would you rather fall within the Anglo-American melting pot of mediocrity?

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-10-2 09:45

Extremism is great contrary to common misconception, would you rather fall within the Anglo-Americ ...
Ovaltine 發表於 2012-10-2 03:51

眞係唔係為拗而拗，不過有時mediocrity都唔係太差。總唔可以個個都咁extreme，個個都咁有＂性格＂又係唔productive啫。

回想過去人類一千幾百年都係慢慢進步其實係OK，反而依家可能某啲位進步太快好多人都搵唔到抖氣位去安於現狀。

作者: Look4chrisng 時間: 2012-10-2 10:50

講反學歷
如果你是父母，你明知自己仔女高不成，底不就，但剛剛有能力入到大學讀general studies
你明知加 ...
ricrick 發表於 2012-9-27 16:13

Couldn't agree with this.  Going to University is to enrich oneself, this has to come first.

Liberty arts studies is not a waste of time.  It is probably one of the few things worthy of the time spent during undergraduate.  Rather, professional degrees are mostly a waste of time and youth.

Fibi, say if you kid is going to Juilliard, that's a lot better than doing an Accounting degree in UBC.  Art is not a bad choice.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-10-2 13:35

Couldn't agree with this. Going to University is to enrich oneself, this has to come first.

Libe ...
Look4chrisng 發表於 2012-10-2 10:50

我諗rickrick講過啲係communications, philosophy, linguistics果啲arts program唔係講緊fine arts。如果連中學都讀唔好，入到大學又唔係讀啲自己鍾意嘅科，都唔慌讀得好咁解。

讀performing arts果啲又係另一種mindset，如果有錢有興趣又＂自以為＂有talent都不妨讀嘅，人生苦短，可能殺出一條血路呢。

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2012-10-2 14:02

我諗rickrick講過啲係communications, philosophy, linguistics果啲arts program唔係講緊fine arts ...
大C姐發表於 2012-10-2 01:35 PM

I think university education is different from highschool.
some that did only alright in highschool in uni and some that gets high marks in highschool cos they can memorized pages of text books may not do ok in uni.

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-10-2 20:34

回復 55# Look4chrisng

If my children is that gifted to get into great school I'll be happy la.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-10-2 21:23

回復 Look4chrisng

If my children is that gifted to get into great school I'll be happy la. ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-10-2 20:34

天份呢啲嘢真係口買口賠。個個老母都話自己個仔有天才，等如個個女人都話自己睇落唔似真實年紀一樣。

不過我覺得讀書唔會讀壞人嘅，所以讀咩科都冇所謂。個仔女有信心又覺得自己真係有本事的話咪自己搵辦法借錢讀Emily Carr讀film school囉。至少讀咗成唔成功都係自己嘅責任，同自己交待。

作者: chunsh 時間: 2012-10-2 23:54

呢個case我就想探討多啲，因爲如果你係做醫生，做會計，做科學研究，你唔係大學畢業考唔到牌就直頭 ...
大C姐發表於 2012-9-24 16:18

非常同意
我自己做IT o既
我聽過o的同事講話唔會請o的無大學degree既人﹐話o個的人係colleges/BCIT靜係學點
樣寫code, 但唔會好似大學degree o甘學點樣寫的有quality o既code﹐同點樣design
一個好o既software.

Well, 我無讀過colleges/BCIT﹐我唔知佢地點教﹐但我自己讀完成個degree,老實講﹐課堂上, 講師真係唔係花太多時間講點樣寫的所謂quality code﹐講師/TA 改功課都唔會太著重o個o的問題。

我自己都係畢業後出黎做o野先跟的senior學o既

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-10-3 07:46

非常同意
我自己做IT o既
我聽過o的同事講話唔會請o的無大學degree既人﹐話o個的人係colleges/BCIT靜係 ...
chunsh 發表於 2012-10-2 23:54

我知道做IT都有好多唔同嘅certificate要考。會唔會有啲certificate個pre-requisite係要有degree呢？

我咁問係因爲有啲行業為咗保障個專業資格，會開始要求有大學學位。例如我知道有啲朋友做地產，mortgage broker以前攞牌考個試就得，但係依家都好似要有學位先可以。

所以有時degree係保障自己第日要轉行都有最低入場資格。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-11-27 02:36

呢排公司請人，一日（after screening by HR）收嘅resume都有十幾廿份，真係咁多人搵工？請個junior嗟，連啲master都apply。。。我都覺得幾陰工。

作者: Quest 時間: 2012-11-27 07:47

呢排公司請人，一日（after screening by HR）收嘅resume都有十幾廿份，真係咁多人搵工？請個junior嗟，連 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-27 02:36

To tell you the truth: given the current global economic situation (negative, some at the brink of recession), a lot of countries are having serious unemployment issues, including U.S.

Fortunately here in Canada: it's still ok but any tran-continental companies will still suffer as well. Lots of people out there previously laid off actively looking for jobs.

No degree or equivalent (diploma or certain technical institution diploma), no chance of landing a job these days.

This is the reality.

Q.

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 10:10

呢排公司請人，一日（after screening by HR）收嘅resume都有十幾廿份，真係咁多人搵工？請個junior嗟，連 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-27 02:36

我覺得一個好好嘅指標係問啲做recruitment嘅朋友，佢哋公司有冇炒人，有冇壓力，就知近排生意如何。

我就聽到唔少recruiter話市況差，而且仲有agency炒人添。

不過任何逆市都有新job postings，我自己都見到唔少，而且今年都有數個head hunters主動搵我過檔。咁...個市算唔算好呢。我諗少數中高層嘅工係難請人，當然公司都會手緊啲，因爲知道出面多candidates爭同一份工，咁個interview process會長啲冇咁爽手。中低層嘅工就真係較為competitive，好多學生專登唔畢業住，寧願做多個term intern都冇信心出去搵full time。

作者: satil 時間: 2012-11-27 10:30

回復 62# fibbi

一行行啦，我公司前排請人，reception過百份resume，老老幼幼，唔配依份工既高學歷都有。
嗰啲高學歷有經驗的４０－６０歲同啲妹妹仔爭個位，又真係幾陰公。

同期請個handyman做維修，就無人in得落。

作者: Nam 時間: 2012-11-27 11:03

我覺得一行行啦，我男友都無degree/diploma, 被人 laid off 後都好快搵到工，我覺得都好睇你本身經驗底打得好唔好，不過，進修係必需嘅

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 11:36

我覺得個斷層其中一個原因係啲人依家轉工轉得太多。

我身邊不乏２０尾３０頭嘅朋友，佢哋事業仲係未有起色，嚴格嚟講仲未起步。佢哋唔係讀書唔叻，唔係唔勤力，更加唔係得罪人，佢哋只係唔識＂守業＂。佢哋大學時代可能已經（嘗試）讀咗兩三個學位，畢業後有轉過幾次career，可能先諗住讀master做研究，之後又想出國教英文，可能又發現原來自己興趣係電影製作所以去讀film school，但係又貴又驚搵唔到食，最後又聽人講讀accounting。

咁已經過咗１０年８年光陰，冇一個職業做得成功。咁呢段時間都要食㗎，咪做junior囉，咪做散工囉。咁你到３０歳都仲做緊２２歳做緊嘅工，唔怪之得呢啲entry level工咁competitive咁渴市啦。

作者: Nam 時間: 2012-11-27 11:45

講開accounting，好多人真係去讀，但無法學以致用，永遠死守係accounting 行頭，咁梗係多人爭啦！

其實，讀finance/accounting 嘅好處係 accounting open doors, 其實每一個部門都有啲關數字事，睇吓你識唔識睇準機會去sell 自己，同埋識唔識變通

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 11:50

講開accounting，好多人真係去讀，但無法學以致用，永遠死守係accounting 行頭，咁梗係多人爭啦！

其實， ...
Nam 發表於 2012-11-27 11:45

我個例子只係求其講一啲行業，唔一定最後揀accounting嘅。

我覺得有啲課程係特別多人讀，包括accounting，化妝，film school，BCIT嘅radiography。

作者: reyes 時間: 2012-11-27 12:26

Accounting 太多人讀啦，又要考好幾個試先有cert. Return to scale is not that high to me (time to kick in som econ stuffs)

作者: Nam 時間: 2012-11-27 12:59

Accounting真係好多人讀，發覺好多學生都係唔知自己想點，大學畢業搵唔到野做，就去讀多個accounting diploma，因為大部份人都覺得會計係最尾被炒個班！

作者: reyes 時間: 2012-11-27 13:29

好多人都覺得account 係大吹世，個個developed country 大公司都要accounting 既人

作者: BiscottiGelato 時間: 2012-11-27 14:38

Umm.. Not too sure why no one's into engineering. Most people I know get 6 fig just a couple years into the industry. In the states, fresh just out of Ugrad starts close to 6 fig. And there are always tons of jobs and no one wants to take them...

I don't know if 6 fig is a good number these days tho? I know Big 4 Acc starts like 35k in Vancouver?

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 14:51

Umm.. Not too sure why no one's into engineering. Most people I know get 6 fig just a couple years i ...
BiscottiGelato 發表於 2012-11-27 14:38

Engineering專門好多，間間公司都要accounting，但係幾多公司請Engineer呢？

我有朋友依家做緊，由開始讀到依家入行都成差唔多１０年，佢話要好鍾意先得。因爲如果諗住做engineer就要有心理準備周圍飛。佢呢幾年都要喺interier做嘢，雖然人工係幾好，但係要放棄好多生活方式。

同埋講收入，accounting一定唔會好好pay，但係又唔會太差。你講＄３５K係U grad嘅人工，咁考牌嘅費用都係公司俾，你讀engin要讀多幾年（通常自己畀錢），所以唔可以咁計。同埋幾年之後考咗牌都有＄６０－７０K起碼，咁我覺得呢個時世２５－２６歳有呢個人工算唔錯啦。color]

作者: BiscottiGelato 時間: 2012-11-27 15:18

＄６０－７０K was what I was getting as Fresh Grad when I was 21. US's more. I have friends who breaks $150k consistent after 5 years. Oil and gas related fields tho.

And I see more jobs than applicants for Engineers, esp for tech related stuff in California. Not that many people like to take an Engineering degree. And an Engineering degree is typically 1 year longer than Business. Money-wise, the co-op income more than offsets the difference. When I was still at SFU, credits for credits, Business credits costs more than Engineering credits...

Just trying to get people out of the Honger mentality which only Finance, Accounting and flipping Houses can feed a family. Everything else is slave labor and lower class...

作者: reyes 時間: 2012-11-27 15:26

其實engin 係business 之後多人讀個科(係sfu到) ，只係好多人鐘意坐office 唔想走黎走去

作者: Nam 時間: 2012-11-27 15:28

I agreed Engineering is a good industry especially it's blooming in BC as our government give a very good incensive to Engineering and mining industry rightn ow

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 15:31

本帖最後由大C姐於 2012-11-27 15:32 編輯

＄６０－７０K was what I was getting as Fresh Grad when I was 21. US's more. I have friends who brea ...
BiscottiGelato 發表於 2012-11-27 15:18

Engineer都多呀，不過可能分散咗唔同嘅類別（civil, electrical, chemcial, environmental...) 同埋好多唔同title啫。
我又唔覺得香港人覺得Engineer係low class喎，不過當然入行係難少少。

作者: reyes 時間: 2012-11-27 15:40

我聽到好多engin ugrad 都去左alberta 到做人工仲好似好過呢到

作者: BiscottiGelato 時間: 2012-11-27 18:27

I'm in Engin obviously. Tech specifically. It's totally an office job. Boring as hell like an office job. Maybe occassional travel. Like Houston, California, North Carolina. My co-workers do Shanghai, Shenzhen and Yokohama area usually. It ain't like partying at New York every night like big bankers, but it's not that bad. But "只係好多人鐘意坐office 唔想走黎走去" show that the common perception of Asians on Engineering is that it's a very hands on job, and not glamourous. Which I do agree to some extent, but definately not in the pay department when compared to your average Vancouver accontant, and not in terms of being like a mechanic or a technician....

When I am talking about engineering, I am talking about Apple/Google/Samsung/etc. Alberta is also one kind of engineering, for oil and gas. Very good money on anything oil and gas of course. Mining hires material Eng, whom I'd think got very little field work for these people also. Some Civil, Architectural, Geoscientist type does have some field work. I can't comment too much on those cuz I'm not familiar with them. But tech is definately growing very healthily (unlike during the tech bubble). Pay is not bad and relatively stable. Worst case job mobility is not too bad either....

Of course if you can be doctors, strategic consultants and iBankers, even tho u most likely need another 10 years of educaiton, or need to get into Ivey League B/Law School to be considered.... don't look back. But if we need to go down to the more Ugrad type disciplines. Engineering, albeit a little tougher during the undergrads (which is nothing compared to trying to ace ur resume and GMAT to get into Stanford/Havard/Chicago), might be worth considering if one isn't too deep into their Ugrad program yet.

作者: satil 時間: 2012-11-27 19:22

回復 80# BiscottiGelato

Oil and gas係搵到錢，但要把持得住，因為生活好悶，
啲人又煙又酒又賭．又女人．．．．

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-27 21:55

I'm in Engin obviously. Tech specifically. It's totally an office job. Boring as hell like an office ...
BiscottiGelato 發表於 2012-11-27 18:27

物以罕為貴，咁你係咪應該開心呢？

我覺得好多人出嚟做嘢之後都搵到唔同路數，好老實講，做會計頭幾年係多人，但係大半數都會轉行，做其他相關工作或直接做管理工作，所以唔同行業有唔同出路。

不過我同意學生係比較tunnel visioned，好多時都唔知呢個世界有咩工，對it有興趣就淨係諗到apple同google，咁都可能只係局限於平日睇到同聽到嘅品牌出發。雖然係幼稚，但係試問邊個求學時期已經知道自己打後１０年係做咩工作？

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-11-28 00:47

回復 65# satil

講得無錯，大把三、四十歲嘅master去爭一個entry level 嘅junior position. 睇到都心up。
不過都想分享個「笑料」，resume language 果欄竟有人夠膽死剩係填fluent in Mandarin。咪講笑，你當我呢道係國企咩。點都寫番個English 啦。pass 到HR 不過真係唔會有得in囉。份resume 寫到天花龍鳳都假，因為都無睇落去。

作者: BiscottiGelato 時間: 2012-11-28 01:00

回復 BiscottiGelato

Oil and gas係搵到錢，但要把持得住，因為生活好悶，
啲人又煙又酒又賭．又女人． ...
satil 發表於 2012-11-27 19:22

Haha. I'm in tech. 無煙無酒無賭．又無女人. Dunno which is worse. LOL XD

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-28 11:22

回復 satil

講得無錯，大把三、四十歲嘅master去爭一個entry level 嘅junior position. 睇到都心up ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-28 00:47

學無前後達者為先。我覺得如果一個人可以由低做起放棄自己嘅ego都係值得嘉許嘅，同埋年紀成熟啲處理人事同工作都會隠定啲同sharp醒啲。

咁嗰個人可能係覺得自己已經implied識英文，manderin只係additional language skill呢？

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-11-29 11:10

回復 85# 大C姐

如果係change field嘅話，高學歷但由低做起ok喎。但係事實上好多over qualify，咁我點認同佢唔會騎牛揾馬呢？

另有啲做咗幾年team lead，而家走去揾個junior position，我都唔buy囉。有個仲攪笑，話喺菲律賓，要份加拿大嘅工喎。。。有啲就好清楚咁講到話需要幫佢攪working permit。又有好多現在身處加拿大某地（如東部），Seattle都apply。。。
講到language，我認為點都要寫English，其他你識嘅language可以加上。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-29 11:31

回復大C姐

如果係change field嘅話，高學歷但由低做起ok喎。但係事實上好多over qualify，咁我點 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-29 11:10

其實你講得junior position都係預咗人哋一年半載就另謀高就㗎啦。我覺得做老闆有時都要realistic一啲，你就算請個剛剛畢業嘅o靚仔，你認爲佢會留喺個junior position幾耐？你覺得佢會唔會騎牛揾馬呢？

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-11-29 11:57

回復 87# 大C姐

喺老細嘅立場，梗係想個好嘅員工做長啲啦，training都要時間。

咁喺個員工嘅立場，點樣先會無咁容易搵個第份工呢？
我認為係人工，工作環境，進升機會。好嘅咪做長啲囉。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-29 12:41

回復大C姐

喺老細嘅立場，梗係想個好嘅員工做長啲啦，training都要時間。

咁喺個員工嘅立場，點 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-29 11:57

咁你自己就要問自己個position本身有冇晋升機會。如果你係請個receptionist，咁你可以點升佢？又或者做admin幫公司order supplies，做吓filing同organize啲office events，咁你可以expect佢做到其它同事嘅嘢咩？

我覺得人望高處，你都唔想個junior做５年都係一個junior，同埋你想佢stay你都要有opening，有opening你又未必會請個junior，你寧願請出面有相同經驗嘅係咪呀。咁你好難怪人做唔長。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-11-29 14:01

回復 89# 大C姐

唔好睇小receptionist，分分鐘可以變HR一員，可以變junior marketing一員，老細admin又得。

作者: 大C姐 時間: 2012-11-29 14:10

回復大C姐

唔好睇小receptionist，分分鐘可以變HR一員，可以變junior marketing一員，老細admin又 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-11-29 14:01

我冇睇小任何職位，但係你都識講啦，receptionist都可以升其它職位，咁你唔排除任何人會騎牛揾馬，做一陣reception就搵其它職位。

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-12-10 10:39

而家啲唔知八十後定九十後，fresh grad問佢攞transcript都唔俾。。。真係。。。想點呢？其實想當年我啲成績都唔見得人，但係都要俾架啦。人哋覺得ok咪ok囉，唔得咪唔得囉。俾人睇都仲有一個機會，唔俾就真係無。你無可能知個employer點諗，或者佢唔介意個成績，不過想睇吓你讀啲咩科，等你吹吓水。唔係間間公司要個科科A先請架。

仲好，慳返啲時間，見少個。

作者: reyes 時間: 2012-12-10 13:38

而家啲唔知八十後定九十後，fresh grad問佢攞transcript都唔俾。。。真係。。。想點呢？其實想當年我啲成績 ...
fibbi 發表於 2012-12-10 10:39

你公司請人?

咩工? 係邊到? 仲要唔要人?

作者: fibbi 時間: 2012-12-11 17:32

回復 93# reyes

too late la...we already stopped application.

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