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標題: 不能說的真話 - 中共打壓豆腐渣真相 [打印本頁]

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-5-12 21:39 標題: 不能說的真話 - 中共打壓豆腐渣真相

仆街！仆街！假如一個咁樣嘅政府都仲唔算仆街嘅話，咁試問點樣先至算係仆街？！

[youtube]HOvC6S8XSeM[/youtube]
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作者: Lik 時間: 2009-5-12 21:42

本帖最後由 Lik 於 2009-5-12 21:43 編輯

http://www.mingpaonews.com/20090512/gaa1.htm

圖則證川校豆腐渣
鋼筋幼石屎劣專家揭六大問題 2009年5月12日

【明報專訊】今天是四川大地震一周年，四川當局過去一直否認有人死於「豆腐渣」工程，但本報取得活埋逾千師生的北川中學的施工圖則，發現教學樓的建築質量最少出現6個問題，包括圖則不專業、部分鋼筋太幼，以及鋼筋交接的駁位太短等，全都削弱了大樓的抗震能力。3名工程師分析後，均直言學校建造質素差，更有工程師指大樓只可抵受3至4級地震。

3名北川中學遇難學生的家長，偷偷進入埋葬了他們孩子的廢墟，前方2003年落成的教學樓完全粉碎性倒塌，旁邊1999年啟用的校舍（灰色牆身）則只有天花脫落，遠方黃色牆身紅頂的校舍則幾乎完好無缺。

四川大地震一周年，四川多個地區有紀念活動。據了解，國家主席胡錦濤和國務院副總理李克強會到震央映秀鎮出席紀念活動。而今午2時28分的一年前大地震發生時刻，全市會鳴笛3分鐘向死難者致哀。

料只可禦三四級地震

川震傷亡慘重，「豆腐渣」工程被視為「元兇」之一。兩名曾多次到災區察看的資深工程師，將北川中學施工圖則與現場廢墟比較，直言該圖設計不良，施工現場亦存在鋼筋過幼、間距過寬、樑柱接駁鬆散等嚴重問題，其中一人指出﹕「某些學校鋼筋都沒有，1級地震都會倒下，北川中學仍有鋼筋，但勉強只可抵受3至4級地震，與當地7級防震標準相差太遠。」

這名不願透露姓名的工程師呼籲﹕「中央必須以理性來正視普遍存在的豆腐渣問題……核心意義是展望未來，防止中國再發生同類事件。特別是上海等接近地震帶的大城市，有必要作建築質量普查，並修訂條例，嚴格檢測施工質量。」

北川中學原有4幢大樓，其中於2003年落成的北川中學教學樓，在5．12地震中粉碎性倒塌，活埋1300人。本報記者5月初於現場所見，教學樓外，另外3幢大樓損眦並不嚴重，如旁邊一幢1999年完工的舊校舍只有天花脫落，另一邊於70年代落成的老式建築更完好無缺。

家長得圖公安恐嚇泄機密

學生家長母勇賢早前冒險取得教學樓施工圖，比對現場瓦礫展開調查，發現工程嚴重偷工減料。維權人士王笑冬憶述﹕「母勇賢將施工圖複印本交到四川省公安廳，第二天綿陽市公安局來了幾個警察，把他帶到賓館以『泄露國家機密』罪名威脅他。」至於王笑冬自己則千方百計，欲將圖則交給中紀委，但其間不斷被監控及收到死亡恐嚇，3月起被迫流亡。內地媒體有關圖則的報道則被徹底封殺。

本報取得此施工圖，印有「北川建築勘察設計所」字樣、簽名等資料。今年元旦曾到過北川中學的港大建築系助理教授朱濤，看過施工圖後，認為圖則是真的。

他對照過施工圖和家長調查時於廢墟現場拍得的照片，認為家長的調查，反映中學實際施工情況嚴重不符合施工圖則，如當地規定組成混凝土的「石頭子」的直徑不能大過2厘米，「但從現場的照片所見，竟有10厘米的石頭，是很嚴重的錯誤！」他解釋，石粒過大，土內空間便擴大，鋼筋等建材無法抓緊，強度下降易老化，結構便不安全。

他再指出建築物的多個問題，如用於樑柱的鋼筋數量減少、位置不對，部分鋼筋亦太幼，這些均嚴重影響該校結構，「若該調查結果是真的……便可確定是豆腐渣工程」。但他指家長的調查只反映學校的局部情況，且多次餘震後，塌下的物料亦需逐一仔細查看，「要政府詳細調查才可下結論」。

朱濤補充說，90年代的建築物皆需接受質量檢查和提交檢查報告，「若詳細調查確定與施工圖嚴重不符合的範圍，那個施工隊、現場監工的人為什麼看不到問題？質量檢查的人為何發現不到問題？施工工人是否有倒賣材料？這些人都在，可逐一查出」。

朱濤表示，完全根據施工圖施工，北川中學應可抵受去年的地震，「只會出現裂痕，但不會整幢塌下來」。

對於官方對北川中學變成「廢墟」的說法，是認為教學樓的選址問題，朱濤指可透過挖開土壤探察了解這說法是否屬實。

無國界工程師召集人黎廣德認為，當局應設立類似香港的死因聆訊，公開資料及分析建築倒塌的原因，從中汲取教訓，防悲劇重演。

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-5-12 21:47

http://www.mingpaonews.com/20090512/gaa2.htm

川官追蹤恐嚇爆料人全國逃亡 2009年5月12日

【明報專訊】遇難學生家長取得北川中學教學樓的施工圖則後，政府當局曾以「涉嫌泄露國家機密」罪名威嚇家長們交出施工圖，教學樓一名姓盧建築商則出價25萬人民幣收買施工圖。維權人士王笑冬今年3月將施工圖交北京中紀委告狀後，一直被川官嚴密跟蹤監視，又接到死亡恐嚇，被迫開始穿州過省的流亡歲月。

施工圖交北京中紀委告狀

「我在深圳時以為沒人知道，但一個好心警官警告，我的手機在被全程跟蹤，定位在5米範圍內，2000米內可以殺了我，勸我不要管了，回去和老婆孩子過日子。此後我再也不敢使用手機了。」

他其後輾轉逃到上海，不敢和家人聯絡。「但4月25日下午2點，四川兩名警官來到了上海，傳訊了我的父親。」王笑冬萬念俱灰，原來打算遠走海外躲避追捕，但深深愛覑祖國，愛覑他的女兒和剛出生的兒子。他不希望他們將來生活在一個灰色的、充滿謊言的社會裏。

他決定留下遺書絕筆﹕「再見了！我的同胞！」然後往海邊準備投海，「第一個司機聽說我去自殺，力勸我。」後來他想到兒女，才打消了念頭。

北川的家長們則仍然被監控，不准聚集，上月40名北川喪偶男女集體再婚，數十名北川家長才偷偷共敘，在別人喜慶婚樂下，懷念死去的孩子。

曾經多次為公眾利益與政府興訟的四川維權律師邢連超直言，無論是「『譚作人的名單』，還是『王笑冬的圖紙』，都是太敏感了，不會有律師肯接這個案子」。邢說，如果照慣例成功追討賠償，一個孩子的性命至少要賠20萬，只要有一宗成功，告狀的人就會不斷而來，到時恐怕很多官員脫不了關係，可能涉及上千億人民幣的賠償，四川財政會垮掉。

作者: 快樂牛郎 時間: 2009-5-12 22:10

死左果D下次投胎記得唔好揀生響中國

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-5-12 22:41

死左果D下次投胎記得唔好揀生響中國
快樂牛郎發表於 2009-5-12 22:10

How pathetic to be Chinese in china!!

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-5-12 22:44

下次死果D官員的兒女

作者: mcs889 時間: 2009-5-12 23:02

THIS iS CHINA POWER ><

作者: siumaibb 時間: 2009-5-13 08:33

下次死果D官員的兒女
tofu 發表於 2009-5-12 22:44

禍不及妻兒，你又唔好咁諗。

佢地唔認不過都希望佢地會改善。。

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-5-13 08:41

禍不及妻兒，你又唔好咁諗。

佢地唔認不過都希望佢地會改善。。
siumaibb 發表於 2009-5-13 08:33

How can you expect them to repent if they don't even consider the wrongdoings?
That is the real problem in China, from top officials to illegitimate black-heart merchants that put garbage in food and baby formula. They don't deserve to live.

作者: MyOMy 時間: 2009-5-13 09:19

中國人文化有一個弱點就是對強權認錯, 不對受害者認錯。他們已對偉大的党認錯了, 英明的領導們認為沒有公開的必要。

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-5-13 09:22

中國人文化有一個弱點就是對強權認錯, 不對受害者認錯。他們已對偉大的党認錯了, 英明的領導們認為沒有公開的必要。
MyOMy 發表於 2009-5-13 09:19

That's why I said Chinese live in China are pathetic, except for the elite class.
I was born in China, I want to see China prosper too

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 08:37

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/090623/4/cufv.html
川震死難學生家長赴京上訪再受阻
(明報)2009年6月24日星期三 05:05

【明報專訊】新華社屬下的時政刊物《半月談》發文稱，內地社會矛盾增多，各地基層幹部頻頻以「非正常」方式如監視、強行參加「學習班」、提供免費旅遊甚至用錢收買等方式勸阻上訪者，並不能解決根本問題，反而會令民眾對政府更加不信任。

四川地震過去一年多，8名都江堰聚源中學遇難學生家長不滿政府仍一直未能徹查「豆腐渣」校舍，擬前晚從成都坐火車赴京上訪，但在成都北站遭公安攔截，他們被送返家鄉，屋外並有人監視。44歲的周興容說，「他們說『盡量給你們解決』，現在也沒人解決。」周興容和丈夫在地震後多次試圖上訪，但在清明節、「512」川震周年時受到打壓，丈夫更曾被毆打。

官媒斥地方政府百般阻撓

最新一期《半月談》稱，現時基層幹部「維穩」壓力很大，一旦在區內有訪民赴京上訪，上級部門都會處罰上訪者所在的單位或政府負責人，輕則通報批評，重則丟官罷職。故此，鄉鎮政府每逢敏感時期，往往安排幹部「人盯人」阻止上訪戶越級上訪，還會請上訪戶住賓館、喝酒吃飯、或到外地旅遊，更有限制人身自由的「法制培訓班」，即把上訪戶集中學習信訪條例，包吃包住，但不允許隨意出去。上述種種「花錢買穩定」的做法成為政府開支的無底洞。

「令人民對政府更不信任」

報道引述遼寧新民市周坨子鄉30年上訪戶崔德忠說，為了讓他不要上訪，政府提供全家「低保」（即綜援）待遇，今年4月還送給他1袋米、1袋麵粉、兩桶油和7斤半香蕉，但他表示「我不認可政府這種做法，我之所以不放棄上訪，就是想討個說法。」

中國社科院農村所社會問題研究中心主任于建嶸教授說，「收買」破壞了信訪民眾對公平正義的追求，造成對政府更加不信任，也不利於中央真正了解民意。

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 08:39

好奇怪點解班走狗唔敢走來響呢個 post 度宣揚佢地嘅歪理同為主子護短。

唔係自己身有屎，點解要做埋咁多小動作？明明係有豆腐渣，明明自己係有錯，點解都仲係要極力唔認，而反為仲要做咁多野去掩飾？

點解唔可以文明啲，有錯就認，然後追究責任？過中當然有人要丟官、賠償、甚至被依法判重刑，但如果責任係一直唔須要有人去負嘅話，咁啲官嘅操守、社會嘅質數又點會進步？

-力

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-25 11:25

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-25 12:38 編輯

好奇怪點解班走狗唔敢走來響呢個 post 度宣揚佢地嘅歪理同為主子護短。

唔係自己身有屎，點解要做埋咁多小動作？明明係有豆腐渣，明明自己係有錯，點解都仲係要極力唔認，而反為仲要做咁多野去掩飾？

點解唔可以文 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-25 09:39

Lik,

Your attitude does not make you a true 社會民主衛士. When I make comments, I tried to be rational and objective. It is not a matter of defending CCP.

First, other than the news report, I do not have much information about this subject, especially from other sources (can you share if you have?) telling us how the Chinese government responses to this. Are they really doing nothing or actually doing something about this?

Second, I also believe the Chinese government has not done enough or should be 問責 on this incident.

Our objective criticism and 問責 will help China grows politically and democratically. Blind attacks will serve the opposite.

No matter what and regardless which party is in power, I always wish and support China to continuingly become stronger economically, politically and democratically. I am lucky enough to be in Canada, and I wish mainland Chinese have a better life as well.

P.S. – the source for MingPao is from another media (半月談)under 新華社. So you still deny China is growing politically and democratically?

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 14:36

Had you watched the TVB special program that I posted at the beginning of the thread, you would have seen and heard the exact same story being told by 2 courageous village parents to the TVB reporters. Government officials were using a combination of bribery and threats in attempt to get the parents to shut up and give up their fight. Being the tame and obedient peasants that most Chinese have been, many have gave in to the dirty tactic that the government employed.

The same story has been re-told over and over again. Is the truth really that difficult to grasp?

I don't believe in playing nice with the government and politicians because for the most part, the nature of politics and politicians means they are corrupt. There are exceptions (the fine folks of LSD, Dr. Sun Yat Sen, for example), but they are few and far in between, and definitely the minority.

-Lik

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 14:52

I never denied that China is progressing politically and democratically. (On the other hand, human rights conditions never improved in the last 20 years, and in fact, have only gotten worse on numerous fronts.) Heck, a student getting 5/100 in a test when he always used to get 1/100 is a 500% improvement. But how is 5/100 not a miserable failure?

On a different note, reports and the press in China deserves to be commended, despite the censorship and close scrutiny that often takes place. A lot of the reporters and editors are always testing the boundaries and the limits of the CCP. IIRC, 南方都市報 is one of the more daring newspapers, and have had their share of editors being sacked and/or investigated for the reporting and editorials that they've published. Of course, at the end of the day, when Grandfather orders everybody to shut up, everyone has to shut up.

Contrast that with the increasingly useless wimps that make up the HK media. Programs such as the ones I posted (about Tofu leftovers, 6.4, etc.) are extremely rare these days. Everyone (and CCTVB, in particular) has adopted a most aggressive self-censoring style. A gutless press is definitely not a something you want to see in society.

-Lik

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-25 15:23

China's per capita GDP is more than 3 times that of democratic India.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 15:33

China's per capita GDP is more than 3 times that of democratic India.
peter236 發表於 2009-6-25 15:23

車，仲以為阿 Peter哥會有咩講添！來來去去你咪又係死剩你主子果一句「窮得只剩下錢」？

-力

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-25 15:47

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-25 16:50 編輯

車，仲以為阿 Peter哥會有咩講添！來來去去你咪又係死剩你主子果一句「窮得只剩下錢」？

-力
Lik 發表於 2009-6-25 16:33

you stupid moron, you are just parroting what your British master paid you to say. But your US/Uk masters are going bankrupt. China is now controlling the value of the $US.
China now has the money to pay for education, social welfare etc, while the western countries are now bankrupt with big fiscal deficits.
Money is not important? Maybe Lik has too much money already, but to a lot of people, what they need is money to improve their living standards.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-25 17:00

On the other hand, human rights conditions never improved in the last 20 years, and in fact, have only gotten worse on numerous fronts.
Lik 發表於 2009-6-25 15:52

Can you make a strong argument with supporting evidences for this statement that you made?

It is a true test to see whether you really know about China and sincerely care for mainland Chinese people. Or you just at here 亂吠 and try to fulfill your personal ego and desire.

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-25 17:58

好奇怪點解班走狗唔敢走來響呢個 post 度宣揚佢地嘅歪理同為主子護短。

唔係自己身有屎，點解要做埋咁多小動作？明明係有豆腐渣，明明自己係有錯，點解都仲係要極力唔認，而反為仲要做咁多野去掩飾？

點解唔可以文 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 00:39

小弟覺得, d 村民可以兩個兩個咁上去. 一次上八個, 咁樣好難掩人耳目.
兩個兩個上去, 算係分散投資, 成功既機會應該大d.

講番個case, 小弟覺得有d 官員唔想比最高領導人借機會打佢耙, 所以就設法阻礙d 災民去北京面聖. 其實, 小弟又唔信d 最高領導人乜都唔知, 只不過佢地知道全中國既官員都係咁上下, 打得一個耙, 就會有千千萬萬個受害人面聖, 到時真係打耙都打到手軟.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-25 23:51

Can you make a strong argument with supporting evidences for this statement that you made?
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-25 17:00

阿哥仔，你餐餐都係咁㗎喎？叫我 provide strong argument with supporting evidence 來支持我所講話中國人權有退無進？你自己對眼盲㗎？定係你腦閉塞呀？淨係天安門母親廿年來都唔俾公開拜祭自己死去嘅子女就經已係呢廿年來對人權最大嘅侮辱啦？王丹、希哥、熊炎（一定寫錯字）、其他學運領導、香港泛民眾多議員，個個都係中國人民共和國嘅公民，但點解無一個能夠踏足中國大陸？！知唔知魏京生係邊個呀？知唔知高麗潔係邊個呀？咁胡佳呢？又知唔知啱啱俾老共告煽動顛覆國家果個劉曉波係邊個呀？我隨口 up 呢幾個都係啲最有名嘅人來㗎咋，有幾多個不知名嘅維權人士死咗都唔知咩事，連屍骸都唔知去咗邊啦！

知唔知東八塊係乜野呀？知唔知上訪名義上係乜野，實際上又係點㗎？知唔知上訪嘅人會被地方政府（甚至乎好多時係中央政府）點 "招待" 呀？

知唔知金盾係乜野呀？綠霸。花季護航呢？言論自由中國有咩？黨禁同報禁就有！一個尊崇無神論主意嘅國家卻要監控宗教同信仰自由，唔通咁就叫做有人權呀可？！

你成日叫我俾個好嘅 argument 你，我又唔見你講假過我聽家陣中國人權響共產黨嘅「英明領導」之下進步咗幾多？如果真係有進步嘅話，點解我隨口 up 都數到咁多 example 嘅？

中國人民嘅生存權的確係有進步；三十年來嘅改革開放確實係令到大量人士脫貧同生活得到改善。但人唔係畜生，唔係淨係有生存權就得㗎。你唔好同我講國內啲人生活未有溫飽，所以唔可以追求生存權以外嘅野呀？如果係嘅話，咁點解沿海早就富起上來嘅人依然係無人權呢？幾多省市大把水，幾多官邸美輪美奐呀？

中國有人權？中國人權有進步？我呸！講埋啲咁嘅說話，正不該呀你！

-力

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-26 00:08

阿哥仔，你餐餐都係咁㗎喎？叫我 provide strong argument with supporting evidence 來支持我所講話中國人權有退無進？你自己對眼盲㗎？定係你腦閉塞呀？淨係天安門母親廿年來都唔俾公開拜祭自己死去嘅子女就經已 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 15:51

力兄, 其實你講既野, 絕大部份小弟都認同, 中國人權狀況係需要改善.
人權, 對於我地呢d 叫做已發展國家係一樣重要既野, 我地冇左人權會好唔開心.
不過, 小弟覺得好多國內既同胞, 佢地根本唔關心乜野人權, 因為佢地覺得人權唔可以當飯食, 唔可以當錢駛. 小弟相信, 國內有好多地方, 試下比1) 人權, 2) 一百蚊佢地選擇, 會有一大班人揀2), 因為佢地覺得而家自己已經有足夠既人權... 基本上, 佢地根本就唔知乜野係人權.

不過, 始終都會有一天, 國內同胞既知識水平提高, 佢地會明白人權既重要性. 到時, 就唔到共產黨唔改善人權了.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-26 00:41

MJJ，針唔吉到肉唔知痛。你問我果個問題，你試下走去問吓班豆腐渣工程受害人嘅父母呀哪？你試下問佢要錢定係要返個仔？！

一個有血性嘅人唔通會想見到中國國內其他人要搞到好似班豆腐渣父母親咁樣身受其害先至知道人權嘅可貴呀？真係到咗果陣嘅時候就經已太遲啦。

-力

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-26 00:53

MJJ，針唔吉到肉唔知痛。你問我果個問題，你試下走去問吓班豆腐渣工程受害人嘅父母呀哪？你試下問佢要錢定係要返個仔？！
一個有血性嘅人唔通會想見到中國國內其他人要搞到好似班豆腐渣父母親咁樣身受其害先至知道人權嘅可貴呀？真係到咗果陣嘅時候就經已太遲啦。
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 16:41

你睇下佢地如果唔係因為咁而受害, 佢地會咁關心件事嗎?
中國人既特徵, 各家自掃門前雪. 你試下問下其他無關既人, 佢地要錢定係比番個仔d 受害人? 都係唔好問喇, 小弟唔想知道原來要錢既人會比較多.

小弟覺得, 國內既人大部分係唔會聯想到人權同豆腐渣工程冇乜野關連. 佢地會諗, "人權同d 危樓有關咩? 有人權就唔會有豆腐渣? 呃鬼食豆腐咩, 你一定係練法輪功既妖孽! 草泥馬! (小弟今日新學的, 學以致用)" 我地同佢地身活o係兩個唔同既世界, 你唔會明佢諗乜, 佢亦都唔會明你諗乜.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 01:58

MJJ，針唔吉到肉唔知痛。你問我果個問題，你試下走去問吓班豆腐渣工程受害人嘅父母呀哪？你試下問佢要錢定係要返個仔？！

一個有血性嘅人唔通會想見到中國國內其他人要搞到好似班豆腐渣父母親咁樣身受其害先至知道 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 01:41

You moron, the building codes were so different many years ago. Not all the buildings that collapsed during earthquake were tofu.

As you know, locally many schools in BC have not been reinforced yet to withstand earthquakes. These schools were built long ago when building codes were different.
It is very strange that your government just refuses to upgrade those schools now.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 02:05

阿哥仔，你餐餐都係咁㗎喎？叫我 provide strong argument with supporting evidence 來支持我所講話中國人權有退無進？你自己對眼盲㗎？定係你腦閉塞呀？淨係天安門母親廿年來都唔俾公開拜祭自己死去嘅子女就經已 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 00:51

wow, you stupid moron, you are just parroting what your British master ordered you to say. But your US masters are going bankrupt.

China now has more resources to pay for education, health care, social welfare etc, while the western countries are now bankrupt with big fiscal deficits.

Money is not important? Maybe Lik has too much money to spend, but to a lot of other people, what they need is money to improve their living standards.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 03:58

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-26 05:21 編輯

阿哥仔，你餐餐都係咁㗎喎？叫我 provide strong argument with supporting evidence 來支持我所講話中國人權有退無進？你自己對眼盲㗎？定係你腦閉塞呀？淨係天安門母親廿年來都唔俾公開拜祭自己死去嘅子女就經已 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 00:51

I am asking you to make a comparison between the human right status in mainland China 20 years ago and today. It is a simple question. You can simply make a table and list out the facts.

Yelling loudly does not make you stronger. It, in fact, just shows you have no power.

You don't even know what the human right status in mainland China was 20 years ago. So how would you know what the difference is today?

Give you one more chance. If you want to make a point, just do it in a way that can show you are mature instead of being naive.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 04:08

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-26 05:09 編輯

小弟覺得, 國內既人大部分係唔會聯想到人權同豆腐渣工程冇乜野關連. 佢地會諗, "人權同d 危樓有關咩?
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-26 01:53

You won't even know there is 豆腐渣工程 if it was in 80's and earlier. You would only see or hear how brave the PLA was and how they risk their lives to save people and how the government officers working days and nights without any sleep. It was the situation in China.

It was even worse beyond imagination if you go further to 60's and 70's.

If we want to understand today, then we have to know the past.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-26 04:44

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-26 05:13 編輯

It is like I rob off all your money 60 years ago, and suddenly I feel ashame, and return 5-10 dollars to you;be grateful! who knows, I may return all your money in 100 years

. If you were lucky to live that long.
Why there are small group of people keep insisting that Chinese nationals are low B and illiterated  therefore they do not deserve human right and democracy.
Do not compare Chinese to Slumdogs, Chinese are not stupid, dare to compare Chinese with Canadian? It is ONLY the CCP  leader proclaimed that Chinese nationals are low quality to be democratic.
I agree there could be  other  alternatives than "Western Style Democracy" but I don't think Communism is the answer. B

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-26 05:18

CCP had created far more disasters than their recent "accomplishment".
now bite me.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-26 08:35

我都費鬼事去回覆啲廢柴妖孽同佢地啲扭曲事實... 幾多新樓通通都係豆腐渣呀？又有幾多更加舊嘅樓都無全毀滅咁 instant collaspe 呀？呢啲係人話來嘅咩？片呀，實地驗證呀，專家呀，全部都出晒來啦。你咁都可以繼續鬼話連篇？！咁多小朋友被壓死又唔見你死？！

你睇下佢地如果唔係因為咁而受害, 佢地會咁關心件事嗎?
中國人既特徵, 各家自掃門前雪. 你試下問下其他無關既人, 佢地要錢定係比番個仔d 受害人? 都係唔好問喇, 小弟唔想知道原來要錢既人會比較多.

小弟覺得, 國內既人大部分係唔會聯想到人權同豆腐渣工程冇乜野關連. 佢地會諗, "人權同d 危樓有關咩? 有人權就唔會有豆腐渣? 呃鬼食豆腐咩, 你一定係練法輪功既妖孽! 草泥馬! (小弟今日新學的, 學以致用)" 我地同佢地身活o係兩個唔同既世界, 你唔會明佢諗乜, 佢亦都唔會明你諗乜.mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-26 00:53

各家自掃門前雪呢家野其實真係非常之唔掂。查實就算你本來就自私到暈，但今日你幫人地阿A掃一掃，過兩日又幫阿B掃一掃，如此類推，到他日你自己出事嘅時候，斷估都有返幾丁友來幫拖呀化？

更可悲嘅就係其實因中共嘅威逼利誘底下，其實有好多家長都已經認命而接受咗共匪所提出嘅不平等條約。一個小朋友嘅生命，係咁易用幾萬銀就擺平了... 點解中國人條命可以咁賤？！

-力

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 10:52

CCP had created far more disasters than their recent "accomplishment".
now bite me.
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-26 06:18

Who cares how you think? As the Chinese people are improving their living standards going forward, your bashing is mostly irrelevant.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 11:54

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-26 13:01 編輯

It is like I rob off all your money 60 years ago, and suddenly I feel ashame, and return 5-10 dollars to you;be grateful! who knows, I may return all your money in 100 years. If you were lucky to ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-26 05:44

I feel sorry for you that you are such ignorant (讀多D書啦), naive and don’t have the capability for logical thinking.

First, do you understand history cannot be rolled back? In China, replacing a political regime always involved violence, wars and massive lost of lives. So what is your point? Since CCP had created so much disaster in the past, then the people should replace it? How will China become if you try to overthrow CCP? What kind of life people will be in? How would you know another political regime will be better than CCP?

Second, do you understand that a country can only be built on the foundation it has? China does not have the same foundation of US’s or other western countries. For example, if you have a company and people expect you to become like IBM, Siemens, McDonald’s in 30 years, how would you response to this kind of expectation?

Third, it is true that CCP had created many disasters to its people in the past, so should we today focus on the past or the future? Don’t you want China to become stronger, Chinese people have a better life? Just because CCP had done so many things wrong in the past and you will ignore its achievements?

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 12:00

我都費鬼事去回覆啲廢柴妖孽同佢地啲扭曲事實... 幾多新樓通通都係豆腐渣呀？
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 09:35

It is true and I saw them with my own eyes in China. However, do you understand that you can know about this is and saw it on Chinese news papaer already a progress and improvement compare to the past?

It is the fact even though you may not like to admit it.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 12:14

It is like I rob off all your money 60 years ago, and suddenly I feel ashame, and return 5-10 dollars to you;be grateful! who knows, I may return all your money in 100 years. If you were lucky to ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-26 05:44

How much did they robbed you off decades ago? Today, trillions of $$ GDP are being generated every year by the Chinese economy. We are talking about trillions of dollars, not a few bucks.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 12:34

It is like I rob off all your money 60 years ago, and suddenly I feel ashame, and return 5-10 dollars to you;be grateful! who knows, I may return all your money in 100 years. If you were lucky to ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-26 05:44

How much did CCP rob you?

We lost the whole family business which my grandfather and his brother built up. At the time, my family had already established businesses in a few major cities.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-26 12:36

I feel sorry for you that you are such ignorant (讀多D書啦), naive and don’t have the capability for logical thinking.

First, do you understand history cannot be rolled back? In China, replacing a political regime always involved violence, wars and massive lost of lives. So what is your point? Since CCP had created so much disaster in the past, then the people should replace it? How will China become if you try to overthrow CCP? What kind of life people will be in? How would you know another political regime will be better than CCP?

Second, do you understand that a country can only be built on the foundation it has? China does not have the same foundation of US’s or other western countries. For example, if you have a company and people expect you to become like IBM, Siemens, McDonald’s in 30 years, how would you response to this kind of expectation?

Third, it is true that CCP had created many disasters to its people in the past, so should we today focus on the past or the future? Don’t you want China to become stronger, Chinese people have a better life? Just because CCP had done so many things wrong in the past and you will ignore its achievements?rockypath 發表於 2009-6-26 11:54

全部都係多狗餘嘅廢話。

老共肯放棄一黨專政，天下為黨嘅私有產業呢啲咁荒謬又過時嘅概念嘅話，要和平落台又有幾難？國民黨以前都曾經淪為蔣家嘅私有產業，但人地蔣經國都明白到放權同民主先至係世界巨輪行緊嘅方向。更重要嘅係，響現行嘅制度之下，民怨民憤不斷攀升，共產黨如果依舊唔肯放權、唔肯改革、唔肯推行民主嘅話，根本只係會步向官逼民反嘅道路之上。點解近年內地各處都咁多騷亂？點解死個人都可以爆發成為兵民搶屍？點解有人去公安局隊霖咗幾個公安之後都有好多人封佢做英雄？

點解對老共要追根究底鬧返到毛賊果度？因為一個民革就徹底消滅晒中國所有嘅仁義道德，只係剩返一群只會弱肉強食嘅暴民。點解六四廿年後都要講？因為中共一直都唔肯認錯！希特拉同德國納粹黨所犯嘅罪行同中共響六四所作嘅業不相伯仲，但你幾時見過依家仲有人出來插德國 WW2 家陣所犯嘅戰爭罪行？你做錯肯認，又改過自身，咁人地咪會放過你囉。唔係嘅話，往後嘅承繼者將要一直咁受人唾罵！

-力

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-26 12:45

It is true and I saw them with my own eyes in China. However, do you understand that you can know about this is and saw it on Chinese news papaer already a progress and improvement compare to the past?

It is the fact even though you may not like to admit it.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-26 12:00

And your point is?

I have always acknowledged that there is improvement in China. However, when your score only went from a 1/100 to 5/100, the 500% improvement really means nothing at all. 5/100 is still a miserable and unacceptable failure.

-Lik

作者: news 時間: 2009-6-26 12:48

something can never be changed

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 13:37

本帖最後由 peter236 於 2009-6-26 14:43 編輯

全部都係多狗餘嘅廢話。

老共肯放棄一黨專政，天下為黨嘅私有產業呢啲咁荒謬又過時嘅概念嘅話，要和平落台又有幾難？國民黨以前都曾經淪為蔣家嘅私有產業，但人地蔣經國都明白到放權同民主先至係世界巨輪行緊嘅方 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 13:36

oh you moron, you are just of jealous of china's success. Your country is bankrupt, while China's per capita GDP is 3 times that of democratic India.

China has pulled more people out of poverty, and quicker, than any other country in history.

China is overtaking Japan as the second largest economy, and will double the size of its economy again in the next 10 years. China is now a big force in determining the prices of natural resources.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-26 13:52

恭喜老共領導下嘅中國窮得只剩下錢喎？我又真係羨慕到暈呀！

-力

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-26 14:06

恭喜老共領導下嘅中國窮得只剩下錢喎？我又真係羨慕到暈呀！

-力
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 14:52

wahahaha, your own country is bankrupt and runs big deficits.
China has the cash, which can buy more education, healthcare, social welfare etc.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-26 18:36

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-26 19:45 編輯

when your score only went from a 1/100 to 5/100, the 500% improvement really means nothing at all. 5/100 is still a miserable and unacceptable failure.
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 13:45

I had given you so many examples and explanations but you just ignored them. Other than yelling out loud, I don’t see you have a logical mind and proper knowledge.

1% improvement is still an improvement, and 100% improvement is added up by those 1% small progresses.

Do you still remember that it took 50 years for Canadian women to have the full rights for general election since they won the first provincial voting right (and it just happened not long ago - 1960)?

You just made yourself look foolish and immature.

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-6-26 19:54

呢個維園力都幾搞笑
人地唔覆佢，得返佢地幾個響度一言堂是就身恨
周圍燎火頭

連D幾多禮拜無人回既post都要抄返出黎
你好得閑咩？你唔洗上堂備課改功課咩？
就黎7-1 啦wor，買左機票返香港去遊行未呀？

作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-6-26 19:58

全部都係多狗餘嘅廢話。

老共肯放棄一黨專政，天下為黨嘅私有產業呢啲咁荒謬又過時嘅概念嘅話，要和平落台又有幾難？國民黨以前都曾經淪為蔣家嘅私有產業，但人地蔣經國都明白到放權同民主先至係世界巨輪行緊嘅方 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-26 13:36

喂！你好近圖書館唶
得閑唔好響度亂up，去圖書館睇多D書啦~
你出去講呢俾人笑死你呀

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-26 23:33

更可悲嘅就係其實因中共嘅威逼利誘底下，其實有好多家長都已經認命而接受咗共匪所提出嘅不平等條約。一個小朋友嘅生命，係咁易用幾萬銀就擺平了... 點解中國人條命可以咁賤？！
Lik 發表於 2009-6-27 00:35

因為佢地有d 人真係搵十年都未必搵到幾萬蚊.

作者: sheep 時間: 2009-6-27 09:31

因為佢地有d 人真係搵十年都未必搵到幾萬蚊.
mcjohnjohn 發表於 2009-6-27 00:33

咩羅輯呀?
親生骨肉泥架
人肉大賤賣呀?
唔好俾人有個錯覚
錢解决倒就唔係問題
你真係有病

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-27 13:22

3名工程師分析後，均直言學校建造質素差，更有工程師指大樓只可抵受3至4級地震。

兩名曾多次到災區察看的資深工程師，將北川中學施工圖則與現場廢墟比較，直言該圖設計不良，施工現場亦存在鋼筋過幼、間距過寬、樑柱接駁鬆散等嚴重問題，其中一人指出﹕「某些學校鋼筋都沒有，1級地震都會倒下，北川中學仍有鋼筋，但勉強只可抵受3至4 級地震，與當地7級防震標準相差太遠。」

真係好笑到唔停得口~
哈哈哈~

一級地震係咩?
三﹑四級地震係咩?
呢Do甘既報導只有白痴力先會信﹐ 如果唔係邊敢貼出黎笑死街坊~
哈哈

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-27 13:27

本帖最後由 soli 於 2009-6-27 14:29 編輯

Modified Mercalli scale:

I. Instrumental Not felt by many people unless in favourable conditions.

II. Feeble Felt only by a few people at best, especially on the upper floors of buildings. Delicately suspended objects may swing.

III. Slight Felt quite noticeably by people indoors, especially on the upper floors of buildings. Many do not recognize it as an earthquake. Standing motor cars may rock slightly. Vibration similar to the passing of a truck. Duration estimated.

IV. Moderate Felt indoors by many people, outdoors by few people during the day. At night, some awakened. Dishes, windows, doors disturbed; walls make cracking sound. Sensation like heavy truck striking building. Standing motor cars rock noticeably. Dishes and windows rattle alarmingly.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-27 13:47

Just don't laugh yet, would you want to pay $500,000 RMB to buy a suit and live there???

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-27 14:27

Just don't laugh yet, would you want to pay $500,000 RMB to buy a suit and live there???
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-27 14:47

I know you definitely won't, and I believe you have forgotten you are a Chinese as well.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-27 15:41

Just don't laugh yet, would you want to pay $500,000 RMB to buy a suit and live there???
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-27 14:47

Would you want to immigrate to democratic India?

作者: mcjohnjohn 時間: 2009-6-27 16:48

咩羅輯呀?
親生骨肉泥架
人肉大賤賣呀?
唔好俾人有個錯覚
錢解决倒就唔係問題
你真係有病
sheep 發表於 2009-6-28 01:31

原來你中文真係咁差, 連小弟呢句背後既意義都睇唔明.
如果你可以進修一下d 中文便好了...

小弟係覺得, 情況好可悲, 佢地真係可以覺得幾萬蚊係好重要.

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-27 17:16

我都費鬼事去回覆啲廢柴妖孽同佢地啲扭曲事實... 幾多新樓通通都係豆腐渣呀？又有幾多更加舊嘅樓都無全毀滅咁 instant collaspe 呀？呢啲係人話來嘅咩？片呀，實地驗證呀，專家呀，全部都出晒來啦。你咁都可以繼續鬼話連篇？

不實既報導只可以扼到傻仔﹐ 無證據我係唔會信既。
我睇返明報個幅相﹐ 話其中一間北川中學大樓只係天花板下塌﹐ 個間大樓其實原本有五層﹐ 塌下了兩層。
明報記者無查證就亂up﹐仲求其話某工程師話1級地震都防唔到。呢Do甘既報導﹐ 連大紀元都不如。
真係信佢一成﹐ 雙目失明!

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-27 17:17

54# mcjohnjohn

令人諗起“何不食肉糜” 呢。

作者: sheep 時間: 2009-6-27 21:35

本帖最後由 sheep 於 2009-6-27 22:40 編輯

54# mcjohnjohn

我都相信你D中文水準係高过十年來香港母語敎學出泥嘅學生
請解釋乜野叫做'真係可以覺得'

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-27 21:37

http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2008-05-20/091715577662.shtml

北川中学两幢新教学楼倒塌教师称是豆腐渣工程
昨天下午，四川绵阳长虹文体中心，北川中学高一学生在安置点洗衣服。

　　刘亚春，北川中学校长，一个个头不高、体型瘦小的四川男人。

　　他的儿子和妻子在这次地震中遇难，一个星期来，他一直陪伴着地震幸存下来的学生。当外人问起地震后他家的情况时，他总是淡淡地回答“家里还好”。这个看似坚韧的男人，有一个小小的特征，他爱站在阳光下打电话，他说，人多的时候心情好，人少心情就有点儿烦，一个人的时候，心里就很难过，想家。

　　地震那天正好也是星期一，刘亚春在学校召开食堂工人和管理员会议，由于学校主要是住校生，会议的主题是如何改善师生的生活问题。本来2点20分就结束的会议拖延了几分钟，就在会议快结束时，地震就发生了。厨师长说快跑，大家就跟着往外跑。

　　跑到外面时，刘亚春看到楼房在摇，有一幢教学楼已经塌了。摇过之后，学生宿舍没垮，但新教学楼就往下陷。“如果不是开会，我就会在睡午觉，办公楼全垮了，那样我也得死了。”

　　两三天后还听到敲墙声

　　刘亚春立即打电话求救，但所有电话都不通，连打了六个都接不通。10分钟后，县委书记和县长赶到了现场，抢救开始后成立了救灾领导小组，进行救灾、疏散。

　　建于上世纪40年代的北川中学有两幢新教学楼，一幢建于1993年，1997年投入使用，地震中完全塌掉，里面正在上课的是高一高二、初二初三的学生；另一幢建于2002年，2003年投入使用，在震中下陷两层，正在上课的高二学生被埋入地下。

　　“看到那么多学生被压，救又救不出来，我当时想冒火！”当天下午，高三的学生和高一高二的男生、老师，附近赶来的十几个武警、志愿者都来救人，到晚上三四点，有200多个学生被救出。“表面的学生好救，塌下去的那两层学生很难救，就在楼板上钻洞，从洞里挖，有几个学生被救了出来。”

　　那两层下塌的教学楼里不时传出学生的求救声。两三天后，还能听到学生用手“嘭嘭”敲墙的声音，但看到学生无法获救，刘亚春心如刀绞。

　　教师子女死了18个

　　刘亚春介绍，地震发生至今天，遇难的学生有1300多名，遇难老师有40人。目前还有两三百学生受伤住院。

　　“教师的子女很惨，死了18个。刚才打过来的那个电话，就是我们学校教务主任的姐姐，教务主任不在了，前晚掏出了尸体，爱人之前就不在了，现在小孩子心理问题比较严重。”刘亚春说，现在老师的情况还好，还没有那种崩溃的。都在做事，做事就不觉得难受了。他们想上班，想有工作，特别是这些带着学生们逃出来的老师，就想找点儿事做。

　　老师埋怨“豆腐渣工程”

　　下午4时，刘亚春来到长虹剧院，高三以外的学生被安置在那里。刚到剧院，他就遇到了来看望学生的主持人谢娜。两人用四川话聊了一会，“我儿子在的时候，很喜欢看她的节目。”刘亚春说着，也情不自禁地露出了笑容。

　　安置点的学生亲眼见到明星，情绪高涨起来，纷纷拿出笔找他们签名，刘亚春说，看到孩子开心，也让他心里高兴起来。

　　两幢新建不久的教学楼出事后，不少老师埋怨那是“豆腐渣工程”。下陷的教学楼修了三四年，修的时候刘亚春还没调过来，快修好的时候他来了，2006年他出任北川中学校长，上任后还帮学校还了一笔十多万的建楼欠款。

　　刘亚春说，学校建房确实不应该省钱。

　　刘亚春说，之前两幢教学楼造价三四百万，如果要建一所结实的学校，估计要花一个亿，如果这个重担压在一个企业身上肯定不行。

　　最后，刘亚春特别强调了一句：新的学校无论如何不能建在原来的地方，那是个伤心地。

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-6-28 22:16

為川震死者王笑冬甘作棋子揭破豆腐渣被跟蹤逃亡妻「突然」撞車

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/090629/4/cxl5.html

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-11-24 01:01

...another one
四川汶川去年 5.12大地震造成逾 8萬人死亡，當局非但未查處釀成嚴重傷亡的豆腐渣工程，反而瘋狂打壓民間的調查行動，昨日更以非法持有國家機密的罪名，將揭露豆腐渣工程的維權人士黃琦判處三年有期徒刑。

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