溫哥華老友記討論區 - Powered by Discuz! Board

標題: 周全浩﹕請從另一個角度去看「六四」 [打印本頁]

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 11:19 標題: 周全浩﹕請從另一個角度去看「六四」

(明報)2009年6月3日星期三 11:40

【明報專訊】今年5月中，在「六四」20周年的前夕，各大報章頭版刊登了趙紫陽在軟禁期間秘密錄音的事宜，看來這是有人精心策劃，引起全世界的注意。

尤其在香港，有些人表示現時中國歷史課程內，對「六四」只是輕輕帶過，言下之意就是希望中史課程內，應深入探討「六四」。固然，還「六四」一個歷史公道是有需要，但現時明顯地有些人認為其「六四」版本乃最完整，並試圖強加諸別人的知識層面上，在中史課程中以他們的觀點作為依據，看來「六四」的真相遲早應公之於世。

對於「六四」事件的始末，中國政府多年來採取淡化政策，絕少回應及澄清有關「六四」的報道及演繹，這讓某些人壟斷了「六四」的「真相」。筆者認為將來應該還「六四」歷史的真面目，但這個真面目並非如某些港人所渲染的模樣。

看「六四」事件，應從客觀的歷史長河來看。顯而易見，有些事情要在發生過後若干年甚至一段長時間，如5至10年，甚至10至20年，才能看到其正式的影響，發生時根本不會察覺到。

當年1989年，乃中國改革開放頭10年，當年四五月間，學生已經佔領天安門，至五六月，中央政府若再不處理，根本無法正常運作，形勢刻不容緩。

在處理事件上，應注意此點：假若當時能盡早處理，在未有這麼多學生聚集前清場，便不會引起相當傷亡事故，為何當初不處理，非要待到危急關頭才處理呢？

根據中共的說法，當時的黨總書記趙紫陽分裂了黨中央，趙紫陽不肯認真處理學潮問題。至5月，整個北京的氣氛愈加緊繃，學生完全佔領天安門廣場，最後才由鄧小平拍板簽發清場命令，引致震撼世界的「六四」事件。

人民以大局為重才是成熟民主社會

從歷史的長河看，中國「六四」事件實為「蘇東波」事件中一個重要環節。1989年鄧小平下令清場，引起世界很大迴響。當年聖誕節，柏林圍牆倒塌，戈爾巴喬夫不敢出動蘇聯紅兵到場鎮壓，引致東德倒台。1990年東西德復合，1991年蘇聯倒台。到1990年代中期，俄羅斯一片混亂，國內民不聊生，不少人意會到當年鄧小平在「六四」事件上果敢處理是有需要的。若中國未有及時處理，會像蘇聯般倒台嗎？若如是，後果可真不堪設想。「六四」過後，本港有過百萬人上街遊行，當時一些曾參與遊行的港人，幾年後才知道「六四」真正的影響時，對整件事的看法也有轉變。

中國在30年改革開放中，正因中央能在1989年「六四」事件果敢處理，經濟在及後20年才得以迅速發展，若當時未能妥善處理「六四」，中國改革開放可能已經夭折，不會有過去30年的「小平中興」局面。

「蘇東波」事件令到整個蘇聯東歐集團解體，以美英為首的西方列強得以解除心腹大患。1990年代後期起，美國已有人開始轉移視線，將中國列為假想敵，某些西方勢力不想中國變得富強。於是不斷找些議題出來，拖中國後腿，「六四」事件成了上佳選擇。每年為「六四」舉辦的紀念活動，成了外國勢力用以掣肘中國的一個方法。

無可否認，「六四」是近代中國歷史的一個傷痛。一個社會的人民萬事以大局為重，會妥協，才是一個成熟的民主社會。

看看1963年行刺美國總統甘迺迪事件，華倫大法官成立了一個調查委員會專案徹查。而在美，傳言副總統參與其中亦甚囂塵上。查清後，華倫大法官卻宣布調查文件要封存50年，看來這牽涉到美國整體利益。當時美國民眾都未有表明要極力追究事情始末及責任，無非是顧全國家利益。

有些人受別人聳動，便年年走出來要平反「六四」。這個又怎會是一個成熟的民主社會呢？難道他們未曾想過，某些外國勢力十分喜歡削弱，甚至顛覆其他政權嗎？

各位可有想過，考慮到香港的特殊政治文化背景，若然紀念「六四」不符合西方國家的利益，那些港人會否如此熱中此項活動？

作者是香港浸會大學地理系教授

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-3 13:23

又一個多狗餘嘅垃圾左仔擦鞋「學者」其圖為中共嘅罪業塗脂抹粉... 淨係睇佢呢句 "人民以大局為重才是成熟民主社會" 就知道條 KT 響度狗up無謂。一個成熟、文明、民主嘅社會根本就永遠都唔會將所謂嘅 "大局" 凌駕於基本人權之上。

Soli，唔該你慳啲啦～

-力

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 13:48

To say someone is 左仔擦鞋仔 all because of you extremely against 左仔. Doesn't mean your perspective is any better and more objective either.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-6-3 13:55

本帖最後由 chunsh 於 2009-6-3 14:58 編輯

To say someone is 左仔擦鞋仔 all because of you extremely against 左仔. Doesn't mean your perspective is any better and more objective either.
Ultraman 發表於 2009-6-3 14:48

算啦
都話人地相信&中意聽絕對既正義熱血學生對抗evil政府既故仔
政府錯o西呀馬
學生係完全無辜呀馬
明o西

6。4跟本係一個中國近代史上既lose-lose事件﹐complete truth係點根本無人知得西全部

sigh....I said again, Lik is a chinese who is more anti-chinese government than many people who are not chinese

作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 14:03

"一個成熟、文明、民主嘅社會根本就永遠都唔會將所謂嘅 "大局" 凌駕於基本人權之上。"

請問法官判人坐監算唔算""大局" 凌駕於基本人權之上" ?

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-3 14:26

Soli, 你要偷換概念嘅話，我唔會阻止你嘅。

另外，我從來都無講過學生啱晒，中共錯晒。請各位唔好亂咁講。

-力

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 14:34

(明報)2009年6月3日星期三 11:40

【明報專訊】今年5月中，在「六四」20周年的前夕，各大報章頭版刊登了趙紫陽在軟禁期間秘密錄音的事宜，看來這是有人精心策劃，引起全世界的注意。

尤其在香港，有些人表示現 ...
soli 發表於 2009-6-3 11:19

So according to you guys' logic, we should be still in Qing Dynasty: Dr. Sun Yat Sen
has overthrown the Qing Dynasty and established the Republic Of China, with the
help from Foreign powers, the Brits, Uncle Sam and ,yes, the Japanese, along
with the tradition Chinese Triad, what he brought to China was 49 years of unstable
history.

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-3 14:37

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-3 15:44 編輯

So according to you guys' logic, we should be still in Qing Dynasty: Dr. Sun Yat Sen
has overthrown the Qing Dynasty and established the Republic Of China, with the
help from Foreign powers, the Brit ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 15:34

So according to your logic, the current Chinese government should be overthrown?

How much you know about Qing Dynasty when it was at its dieing stage? You show that you know very little about the history... it was in the period of World War I and Wordl War II. Was there any country that time was in a stable condition?

Dr Sun Yat Sen was to save the people and the country, but not to seek for his ruling of the country. 不要侮辱我的偶像！

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 14:46

So according to your logic, the current Chinese government should be overthrown?
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-3 14:37

They should formally admit the wrongdoing of their colleagues and move on,
I never say that we should overthrow the CCP for some mistakes they did over 60
years in power, although I would not give them full support.

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 14:54

They should formally admit the wrongdoing of their colleagues and move on,
I never say that we should overthrow the CCP for some mistakes they did over 60
years in power, although I would not give t ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 14:46

For example, if I ask you to apologize for your rude and illogical statement, would you just say sorry to me that easily, especially if you think you didn't do anything wrong like that?

作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 14:57

"一個成熟、文明、民主嘅社會根本就永遠都唔會將所謂嘅 "大局" 凌駕於基本人權之上。"
soli 發表於 2009-6-3 14:03

That's why many people enjoy living in Canada, maybe especially bad guys and thieves. Shop owners are found guilty and need to face legal obligation for tying up a thief for shoplifting. Yeah, human rights is so good!

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-3 15:02

又一個多狗餘嘅垃圾左仔擦鞋「學者」其圖為中共嘅罪業塗脂抹粉... 淨係睇佢呢句 "人民以大局為重才是成熟民主社會" 就知道條 KT 響度狗up無謂。一個成熟、文明、民主嘅社會根本就永遠都唔會將所謂嘅 "大局" 凌駕於 ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-3 14:23

Lik, you just believe what you want to believe. This is so typical of those western governments who groomed you to be their spokesperson.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-3 15:04

Soli, 你要偷換概念嘅話，我唔會阻止你嘅。

另外，我從來都無講過學生啱晒，中共錯晒。請各位唔好亂咁講。

-力
Lik 發表於 2009-6-3 15:26

If the students were not totally right, should they apologize?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 15:17

The students' biggest mistake was that they thought that China had became a
Reformed and Open government, and they tried to attain the type of democracy
like the free countries, how innocent and pathetic.
I'd like to ask everyone here, would you dare to be so outspoken when you are
in the Chinese territory?

作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-3 15:20

I'd like to ask everyone here, would you dare to be so outspoken when you are
in the Chinese territory?
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 16:17

I also want to know will you dare to outspoken to overthrow the Canadian government in Canada.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 15:22

11# Ultraman
I prefer living in Canada, even I know I could be richer in the US.
I'm not criminal and same are you, so not only criminals and low lives
choose Canada as their home.
I have been asked constantly to go and make a fortune in China, but
I chose to stay put, to me, freedom is more valuable than money.

作者: Lik 時間: 2009-6-3 15:23

I also want to know will you dare to outspoken to overthrow the Canadian government in Canada.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-3 15:20

Dude, we do this every 3 or 4 years. It's called the federal general election. Everyone is totally free to speak for or against the current Canadian government without any sort of consequences.

-Lik

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 15:30

I also want to know will you dare to outspoken to overthrow the Canadian government in Canada.
rockypath 發表於 2009-6-3 15:20

In Canada, I can say to Harper face to face:
"To hell with you, Harper"  without any consequence.
Have you ever been driving on King Edward near Cambie?
there is a big sign  accusing  Gordon Campell and Lib gov't, for over
6 years now, he vows and advocates overthrowing Campell's Government.
Just read all the trade  Unions propagandas, only one mission: to overthrow
any non union friendly government

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-3 15:47

11# Ultraman
I prefer living in Canada, even I know I could be richer in the US.
I'm not criminal and same are you, so not only criminals and low lives
choose Canada as their home.
I have been asked ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 16:22

You can't become richer in the US as the US is now bankrupt and needs to borrow money from China.

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-3 15:48

Dude, we do this every 3 or 4 years. It's called the federal general election. Everyone is totally free to speak for or against the current Canadian government without any sort of consequences.

-Lik ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-3 16:23

The Canadian government is illegal because they took lands from the native Indians.

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 15:49

19# peter236

I rather being poor in Canada
than to collaborate with corrupted people

作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-3 15:50

19# peter236

I rather being poor in Canada
than to collaborate with corrupted people
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 16:49

Like the corrupted mulroney government?

作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 15:53

22# peter236 [ v
I voted Liberal in 1990
作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-3 16:00

Dude, we do this every 3 or 4 years. It's called the federal general election. Everyone is totally free to speak for or against the current Canadian government without any sort of consequences.

-Lik ...
Lik 發表於 2009-6-3 16:23

You should know what I truelly mean.

If you organize an operation to using violence and forces to overthrow the government (when it is during its term), what will happend?

Even here, any event that turns into riot will be surpressed by police.
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 16:09

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-3 16:13 編輯

With tanks and machine guns? I don't think so.
In recent history , China is the only country that would cracked down
democratic movement by such massive  brutal force, it is a is a shame in Chinese
history
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 16:13

With tanks and machine guns? I don't think so
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 17:09

o甘要睇下有幾多人啦。

泰國都出動坦克啦。

如果加拿大有幾十萬人暴動﹐  會唔會出軍隊真係好難講。
作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-3 16:19

本帖最後由 rockypath 於 2009-6-3 17:22 編輯

With tanks and machine guns? I don't think so.
In recent history , China is the only country that would cracked down
democratic movement by such massive  brutal force, it is a is a shame in Chinese
h ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 17:09

I think you know very little about world history and politic. China is the only one???? Go to do some research of your own first.

無知並不是罪﹐  真正的罪是以無知為榮。
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 16:29

I know the Czech and Hungarian government had done it in the 50's,
and of course, some small countries in Africa and South America too,
but a major civilized state?
作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 16:31

19# peter236

I rather  being poor in Canada
than to collaborate with corrupted people
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 15:49

You mean Canada has no corruption at all?
作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 16:34

11# Ultraman
I prefer living in Canada, even I know I could be richer in the US.
I'm not criminal and same are you, so not only criminals and low lives
choose Canada as their home.
I have been asked ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 15:22

People and I never try to compare money and human rights. The comparison is to "大局" VS "人權".
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 16:34

29# Ultraman
I didn't say so, I said I would not collaborate with corrupted people.
I've been on Federal payroll for 15 years, yet non-partisan.
作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 16:39

In Canada, I can say to Harper face to face:
"To hell with you, Harper"  without any consequence.
Have you ever been driving on King Edward near Cambie?
there is a big sign  accusing  Gordon Campell  ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 15:30

The fact is, it's not a matter whether you have a freedom to speak to whichever government face to face "go to hell" or not, it's whether they will listen to you and make according changes up to your wish or not.
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 16:46

本帖最後由 soli 於 2009-6-3 18:00 編輯

I know the Czech and Hungarian government had done it in the 50's,
and of course, some small countries in Africa and South America too,
but a major civilized state?
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 17:29

你歷史知識o甘貧乏﹐  等李大師幫你補補課啦~
[youtube]xog-zxf5nGA[/youtube]
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 17:01

Please read my post carefully,
please tell me which country sent in 150,000 elite troop to
crack down student gathering?
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 17:06

The fact is, it's not a matter whether you have a freedom to speak to whichever government face to face "go to hell" or not, it's whether they will listen to you and make according changes up to your ...
Ultraman 發表於 2009-6-3 16:39

The difference is that Harper will not charge me for anti-revolutionary, treason and put me under house arrest and jailed without  a fair  trial.
Would you dare to do the same to the Chinese president in China?
作者: rockypath 時間: 2009-6-3 17:50

The difference is that Harper will not charge me for anti-revolutionary, treason and put me under house arrest and jailed without  a fair  trial.
Would you dare to do the same to the Chinese presiden ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 18:06

We are not trying to discuss the political difference between China and Canada.

We cannot assume there must be a massive and deliberate killing because China has a different political system.

Why there was a need of massive killing if it was true? Open fire and people were killed – YES and I don’t think we will deny that. Massive and deliberate killing? Why? I have trouble to understand. Did massive and deliberate killing really happen?
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 17:54

Please read my post carefully,
please tell me which country sent in 150,000 elite troop to
crack down student gathering?
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 18:01

美國當年用了大概示威人數四份之一的軍隊來鎮壓。
相對於大陸用十五萬對近百萬民眾﹐  大陸算是比美國好了。
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 17:58

There were only 4000-5000 students at Tienanmen Square
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 18:01

不如你話得幾十個學生領袖﹐  15萬鎮壓幾十人﹐ 好無?
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 18:05

If they arrested the student leaders by the end of May 1989, and give them
a fair trial, I will not against. But it was "Kill first, question later"
So again, all the majority medias in Hong Kong are all wrong?
they should be arrested and charged for treason?
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 18:11

本帖最後由 soli 於 2009-6-3 19:13 編輯

"But it was "Kill first, question later"
So again, all the majority medias in Hong Kong are all wrong?"
有咩證據?
邊位學生領袖被打死了?
請不要順口開河﹐  侮辱別人智慧吧。
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 18:18

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-3 18:25 編輯

The student leaders fled the country with the help  and support from the civilians
and some CCP members, without them, it would be impossible.
I never say that the students are without fault, but they are young and innocent,
somehow naive and foolish.
As a government, the officials are responsible to educate people, comply the laws, and assess the situations. They failed in all counts, then in order to end the students movement,  they sent in brutal force and massive cover-up. People would say anything in a free country,  but in China ?
作者: Ultraman 時間: 2009-6-3 18:24

The difference is that Harper will not charge me for anti-revolutionary, treason and put me under house arrest and jailed without  a fair  trial.
Would you dare to do the same to the Chinese presiden ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 17:06

The first thing is, what's the point for yelling at your President (no matter if there is any consequence/obligation after) if there is nothing going to change accordingly? Just want to satisfy your own desire?
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 18:30

43# Ultraman

You see a lots of this happening in Canada all the time.
Mulroney  pointed his finger at John Turner's face at theParliament, and said sternly
"Mr. Prime Minister, you are a liar", such a classic. No, I do not like Mulroney at all.
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 18:30

42# somewhereintime
王丹你認識嗎?
有沒有被殺呀?

"If they arrested the student leaders by the end of May 1989, and give them
a fair trial, I will not against."

大陸就係捉左王丹去審﹐ 你滿意未?

好心你唔知道﹐ 就唔好隨便up。

一分事實說一分話,  好無?
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 18:36

He was not arrested at Tienanmen Square.
They did not find enough evidence to sentence him to death, so he was exiled.
Whoever died or missed in Tienanmen Square, nobody will be able to verify, a
national top secret like Roswell
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 18:48

46# somewhereintime
劉曉波、周舵、侯德健、高新呢?

唉﹐  你真係只知道支聯會講既六四。
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 18:57

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-3 19:03 編輯

They could not kill everyone after they knew that the incident was polarized,
again,  there are  CCP members other than the hardliners would
support the students or it was impossible that some student leaders could
fled the country.
Killing en-masse is way easier to scare and educate peeople.
I trust the majority of Hong Kong citizens, even  12 years after returned to
China, the CCP could not buy the conscience of majority, only those who benefit
from doing mega business with China and politicians in power.
作者: soli 時間: 2009-6-3 19:21

總之乜都你講晒
靠估就當證據。。
真失望~
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 20:05

本帖最後由 somewhereintime 於 2009-6-3 20:15 編輯

In short , my soul is not for sale.
There are tons of  evidences and testimonials  but you chose  to  not to believe,
I still have the special issues from major HK papers, circa 1989 days after 6.4  & 1999
a decade to review and re-think.
while the CCP had 20 years and unlimited fund to create evidences and
buy supports, lets compare the outcome.
I'm non-partisan and have no interest from either side.
Any more comments other than personal attack?
作者: salad_bread 時間: 2009-6-3 20:58

總之乜都你講晒
靠估就當證據。。
真失望~
soli 發表於 2009-6-3 20:21

呢D就係支聯會所講既見證！
真係令人失望呀~~
作者: somewhereintime 時間: 2009-6-3 21:05

Or we shall pity the CCP for being framed for 20 years,
why they do not dare to prove themselves?
作者: fishbelly 時間: 2009-6-3 23:59

毋忘 6.4, 絕不妥協
作者: peter236 時間: 2009-6-4 03:00

In short , my soul is not for sale.
There are tons of  evidences and testimonials  but you chose  to  not to believe,
I still have the special issues from major HK papers, circa 1989 days after 6.4  & ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2009-6-3 21:05

Who cares if you are partisan or not? But you have show us your secret CCP documents before we can believe what you said.

歡迎光臨溫哥華老友記討論區 (http://loyaukee.com/forum/) Powered by Discuz! 7.2