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標題: 比雷曼更低回報的投資 [打印本頁]

作者: hium 時間: 2009-7-13 11:58 標題: 比雷曼更低回報的投資

本帖最後由 hium 於 2009-7-13 13:06 編輯

睇咗哩篇文之後有啲感慨，唔係因為發覺"子女唔會供養父母"... 相反，我有啲意外發覺完來 "養兒防老" 哩個概念都重係好 common... 想知道大家有咩諗法同埋對"生細路仔"哩個"步驟" 又有冇唔同嘅原因哩？

http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/090712/3/d5p8.html

前陣子看到有關「子女是否願意供養父母」的調查報告，發現超過五成受訪者認為父母有責任退休後經濟獨立，不應指望子女供養，調查結果令人擔憂。「積穀防饑、養兒防老」一直是中國人傳統觀念，但今時今日已經不復存在。你們看到這調查感驚訝嗎？若在半年前看到，我會很驚訝，但今天我知道這是鐵一般的事實。

　　近半年很多家長會竟邀請我分享如何教導家長理財的講座，起初我覺得奇怪，但有一次一位中產家長對我說：「唉！呂Sir，現在邊有家長要求子女供養呀？佢哋自己能夠照顧自己，我哋已經偷笑。」另一位大學教授對我說：「我一定要努力賺錢，第一，個女現在二十幾歲，還在外國讀碩士，讀完了，都唔知佢搵份工夠唔夠自己使；第二，我現在每個月也要寄錢畀佢，我將來都係要靠自己了。」

　　在某一次家長講座中，有家長對另一位家長說：「你哋呀，花咁多錢在子女學習語文或興趣上，動不動就花幾萬元去買一套學習英語的教材，又說用幾多錢去學琴，你哋覺得有回報嗎？這投資比投資雷曼更蝕呢！」他好像說得很悲哀，但……卻是實情。

　　望父母繼續「接濟」

　　另一邊廂我聽到一位快要畢業的大學生說：「呂Sir，你咁out㗎，現在是甚麼年代呀？供養父母？」他說時的語氣很驚訝。我問：「吓，咁父母養大你，當佢哋年老時，你供養佢哋有唔妥嗎？」他立刻回答：「當然有啦，我大學畢業，出來工作最多得萬幾蚊，自己都唔夠使啦。好在我的爸爸媽媽已講明不需要我畀家用！」

　　以上幾段對話，已經反映了很多「問題」，新一代已經不再認為供養父母是理所當然的責任，反過來希望父母繼續「接濟」他們；反映了父母只擔心子女辛苦，不斷接濟他們，而他們的抗逆能力就不斷減弱。

　　各位家長，你們的確很叻，能夠賺到或儲到很多錢，但可以更有智慧地運用你們的血汗錢嗎？你們投資了很多在孩子身上，他們的語文能力或許很好、鋼琴技術高超，但他們的品格呢？他們對長者的態度如何呢？不是在家中對你們呼呼喝喝；動輒就大發脾氣嗎？不是有少許辛苦就辭職嗎？

　　或許是時候思考一下，你們何時才願意投資在教導子女有更好的「品格」；何時才會學習忍手，不要動不動便幫他們「抗逆」；又或是只顧不斷滿足他們物質需要？現今大多數的年輕人皆沒有打算供養父母，悲哀嗎？誰惹來的禍呢？

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-7-13 12:36

我老母最醒，一早就拒絕投資係我到，仲要強制性還債，我就實行拖得就拖，避得就避

作者: Yui 時間: 2009-7-13 12:45

我認識一個男人30幾歲，晚晚帶老婆番阿媽到食飯，食完拍拍patpat就走，臨走仲要攞兩個生果走（個老婆會好似系supermarket甘揀個最好最靚既先攞). 兩公婆都有收入，不過就豆零家用都無出。

個阿媽本來有分工有收入都無計，認為每晚見下個仔同新抱一齊食飯都算福氣。但無耐前退左休後就開口問阿仔攞番少少買餸錢，點知兩公婆面皮厚厚大撒太極，但飯就照食。其實兩公婆都唔系無錢，去十幾日日本東京瘋狂購物面不改容，但俾伙食/家用阿媽就側側膊。做阿媽個個真系心都淡。

作者: wow 時間: 2009-7-13 12:46

所以依家個個都唔想生BB,個人享樂主意大過一齊,好多阿爸阿媽都唔會諗住個仔個女比家用,但求自己攪掂自己,唔好黏屋企,得閒同下佢地食飯算比面.

作者: meowmeowmeow 時間: 2009-7-13 13:07

Why would parents supposed to give money to their kids, and the kids do not suppose/ have to help their parents out?????...
It is not only cuz of the money, but also to show the appreciation of what your parents did for you... Most parents dunt need their kids' money anyways, but if the kids give them 家用, the parents will be very happy la...
No one on earth are SUPPOSED to be good to another person, even to their kids. This is a luxury for those who is 有福氣. How many children got abandon each year? We should all appreciate what we are having now

I couldn't say I am a good daughter, but atleast I really appreciate what my parents did for me... I dunt understand the new generations anymore... sigh....

作者: hium 時間: 2009-7-13 13:44

咁如果你覺得你宜嫁要有"回報"所以要供養父母，咁又係唔係你第時有細路嘅時候又會期待佢供養返你呢？同埋你想要細路仔嘅原因又會唔會係"養兒防老" 或害怕自己將來老來寂寞哩？
如果係咁諗，又算唔算自私哩？到頭來都只係為自己退休生活打算而"投資" 所以先生細路仔？定係只係因為自己鍾意細路仔覺得好可愛都想有一個？咁,咁樣又係唔係算自私哩？因為都始終都係因為"自己想" 咋喎？
純討論。。。我係唔了解宜嫁個世界係點運作所以想聽多啲意見咁姐~ 歡迎討論~

作者: hium 時間: 2009-7-13 14:18

我認識一個男人30幾歲，晚晚帶老婆番阿媽到食飯，食完拍拍patpat就走，臨走仲要攞兩個生果走（個老婆會好似系supermarket甘揀個最好最靚既先攞). 兩公婆都有收入，不過就豆零家用都無出。

個阿媽本來有分工有收入都 ...
Yui 發表於 2009-7-13 13:45

我都有識過有個朋友大學畢業之後再去用屋企錢再讀專門學校先去做份同佢大學 degree 冇關係嘅工，成三張幾都做咗幾年野結婚娶老婆重係屋企比錢，咩錢都冇儲過但係買第一層樓屋企比晒首期但係買邊到都唔俾干預。。。

又有見道有啲老人家有好多仔女，佢哋不停咁供養自己啲仔女包括結婚後嘅居所，連自己嘅物業都賣埋，諗住咁多仔女，點都會有個會同自己住同照顧吓自己，點知到頭來佢哋都重要搵租屋住，只係因為啲仔女同佢哋嘅另一半覺得佢哋好難相處同麻煩，唔想同佢哋一齊住。

作者: Yui 時間: 2009-7-13 14:24

咁如果你覺得你宜嫁要有"回報"所以要供養父母，咁又係唔係你第時有細路嘅時候又會期待佢供養返你呢？同埋你想要細路仔嘅原因又會唔會係"養兒防老" 或害怕自己將來老來寂寞哩？
如果係咁諗，又算唔算自私哩？到頭 ...
hium 發表於 2009-7-13 14:44

我覺得做父母既首先唔好甘功利，生兒育女當投資呢種心態其實唔要得，直接或間接地會影響下一代既價值觀，看什麼都利字當頭。

我將為人母，但真系無唸得甘長遠如"養兒防老"或講究"回報"等等。當初想要BB系出自女人既天性同傳統既完整家庭觀念影響。我同老公既想法好簡單，只要孩子健健康康快快樂樂甘成長就已經好滿足，甘當然成長過程中會教育拒正確既價值觀同如原文所講既盡量投資在教導子女有更好的「品格」。我同老公都要學習做人父母，實際上點樣教我地未知，但我地會盡量做個好榜樣。

任何家庭都系，我好深信如果能夠提供到一個充滿愛，關心，同溝通既環境俾子女，呢個孩子長大後顧家既幾會會大大提升。

作者: hium 時間: 2009-7-13 14:27

我覺得做父母既首先唔好甘功利，生兒育女當投資呢種心態其實唔要得，直接或間接地會影響下一代既價值觀，看什麼都利字當頭。

我將為人母，但真系無唸得甘長遠如"養兒防老"或講究"回報"等等。當初想要BB系出自女人 ...
Yui 發表於 2009-7-13 15:24

我好同意你嘅說法～多謝回應～

作者: Littleprince 時間: 2009-7-13 16:59

你令我忽然諗起那個 “大樹”的故事呀。。。。 (呢度以前 POST 過的)
很 SAD﹐但也是很 TRUE。。。算了吧。。。D 父母養仔女根本都唔係打算要他們供養的吧﹖只係以愛還愛﹐係一個愛的關係﹐不是嗎﹖

作者: 布小熊 時間: 2009-7-13 17:11

本帖最後由布小熊於 2009-7-13 18:12 編輯

我認識一個男人30幾歲，晚晚帶老婆番阿媽到食飯，食完拍拍patpat就走，臨走仲要攞兩個生果走（個老婆會好似系supermarket甘揀個最好最靚既先攞). 兩公婆都有收入，不過就豆零家用都無出。

個阿媽本來有分工有收入都 ...
Yui 發表於 2009-7-13 01:45 PM

that's so WRONG!!
I am not much better cos I don't regularly give $ to my parents but I do treat my mom to trips buy gifts for her that I can't even afford for myself. Buy dry scallops and mushroom... take them out for dinner and give them lai see. And I seldom eat at their place.
I usually try to do sudden visits so my mom dont' have time to put too much special effort to cook dinner for me. I will eat whatever they have left over. Just don't want her to be too "sun foo".
Before I need to do mortagage payment, I used to give them a lot. To the point that I have no personal spending money.... (half of my before tax monthly pay)
They are doing ok now, so I want to try to settle down and when they need me to help I will for sure help them. Actually after my car payment is done next year, I will give that to them as a start.

作者: chunsh 時間: 2009-7-13 17:18

佢哋自己能夠照顧自己，我哋已經偷笑

能夠把責任推給下一代麼??
有怎麼樣的父母﹐就有怎麼樣的孩子
現下的父母﹐好像怕孩子受到任何傷害﹐苦痛似的。
動不動就把最好的物質享受給與孩子。幾歲小朋友隨隨便便就有幾百元的玩具﹐十
幾歲就有幾千元的手袋﹐ 手機﹐潮Tee, 什麼限量版sport shoes....令到他們覺得
那些東西 / 錢是從天上掉下來般。
電視﹐電影﹐廣告﹐播一些稍為少一點衣服的女人的場面又話意識良﹐教壞小朋友。

食物又常怕這樣不bacteria﹐那樣多添加劑.......

那麼多的保護﹐那麼多的供應﹐叫孩子怎樣自立呀

作者: Yui 時間: 2009-7-13 17:56

又有見道有啲老人家有好多仔女，佢哋不停咁供養自己啲仔女包括結婚後嘅居所，連自己嘅物業都賣埋，諗住咁多仔女，點都會有個會同自己住同照顧吓自己，點知到頭來佢哋都重要搵租屋住，只係因為啲仔女同佢哋嘅另一半覺得佢哋好難相處同麻煩，唔想同佢哋一齊住。
hium 發表於 2009-7-13 15:18

所以宜家做父母都要為自己打算下，留番個錢傍身，唔好凈指意啲仔女，甘樣將來老左都可以保留番啲專嚴。

作者: BiscottiGelato 時間: 2009-7-13 18:29

本帖最後由 BiscottiGelato 於 2009-7-13 18:35 編輯

Biologically speaking, humans (all animals in fact) give birth to the next generation to continue their blood lines. The salvation of the next generation is already a 'return' on the 'investment'. I am not a parent yet, but I'd think that I'd want to be able to provide the best for my next generation (not just monetary-wise), and I really won't expect anything from them either. As previous posters already said, childrens with good virtue and a correct sense of value should support their parents anyways. But it'd be selfish for parents to 'expect a monetary return' from their children as if they are investing in a retirement fund. After all, the parents had the choice to have kids or not, but the kids never had the chance to decide if they really want to become the parent's child. Without any choices, the child is born to not be able to support him/herself for the first 20ish years. It's a debt imposed on the child by the parents, which really shouldn't be considered a debt at all.

On the flip side, as a child, I would hope my parents will have good retirement financial planning such that they would not need me to support them (as I probably want to use as much as my limited wealth to support my kids when the time comes). However if their retirement strategy falters, then of course I'd also do the best I can to support them financially.

Furthermore, I don't know if I would agree that the current generation is weak in suppporting themselves. Afterall, baby boomers are the ones that have borrowed against the future like never before. The current, and coming generations not only will have to support themselves, but to repay the debt their ancestors have borrowed and repay to nature what their ancestors have destroyed/consumed... Not to mention that developed nations are having serious issues in the aging of their population. As such, i'd say it'll be much more difficult for the coming generations to sustain themselves and maintain a lifestyle that baby boomers have once enjoyed.

作者: tofu 時間: 2009-7-13 19:28

someone posted a  daughter-in-law & mother-in-law's agreement a while ago, i think it is really good.
比雷曼更低回報的投資 - why you are looking for 回報.  have you get agreement with your children before they born.  i mean it is not something that you should ask for 回報
nowadays,  people finish their md or ba in early 20s, start with a ok pay job and start paying back for their student loans and probably start their car loans.  (let say their first job earn $40k, after taxes, ~27K left, paid all the loans, rent &... how much left)  in late 20s they are thinking/pushing to buy a place to live and/or getting married (mostly, parents will need to support to downpmnt).  early/mid 30s, times to get a bigger car or maybe have their own children. and start the cycle again.  老豆養仔,仔養仔嘛.

成三張幾都做咗幾年野結婚娶老婆重係屋企比錢， I have a friend, she doesn't want to get marry, they already live together.  her parents forced her to get marry and request her to do this and that, finally she needs to spend all her saving on the wedding that she doesn't want.  her mum invited some aunt/uncle, which my friend doesn't even know who they are.  her mum wants to do it, because those uncle/aunt invited her to their children wedding ma.  if the wedding is mostly requested by the parents because 佢地要面, the parents responsible for some of the cost, i think it is ok.

作者: hium 時間: 2009-7-13 20:52

本帖最後由 hium 於 2009-7-13 21:57 編輯

Biologically speaking, humans (all animals in fact) give birth to the next generation to continue their blood lines. The salvation of the next generation is already a 'return' on the 'investment'. I a ...
BiscottiGelato 發表於 2009-7-13 19:29

我一路都以為係得我自己咁樣諗係好自私 ( at least 我爸媽都成日話我諗得太自私），原來都有人同我同一樣嘅諗法，多謝你！都解開咗我嘅一個心結。。。
我嘅諗法同你好相似，我係出於一個好普通嘅家庭，爸媽宜嫁都已經半退休狀態，完全冇財政壓力。但係我係一個好普通嘅女人，嫁咗俾一個都係普通嘅男人，做咗好幾年野喺宜家先開始有小小錢喺袋，對於我哋哩啲普通人嚟講，養活自己同儲夠錢俾得起首期真係好難！如果我唔係咁幸福幸運爸媽都唔使我照顧，我諗我哩世都唔使指意可以真正擁有自己嘅家！

作者: ricrick 時間: 2009-7-14 02:01

我都讚成遺傳論及老豆養仔論

父母的恩，其實係報係自己仔女身上，你仔女對你的恩，也是報在他們的仔女身上
是一代一代傳下去，是不能有回報的

我想，父母可以見到自己仔女獨立成家，以經是最好的回報

作者: Littleprince 時間: 2009-7-14 08:13

樓上說得對﹐很多父母心中﹐覺得仔女不用再靠自己﹐已經好安慰。。。

只係我有D香港朋友﹐30 幾歲人未結婚﹐還在比家中的經濟壓得連結婚的念頭都不敢有 (每份糧比超過一半屋企﹐怎樣儲錢娶老婆呢﹖)﹐我覺得他們也是很慘的

作者: shutterbug 時間: 2009-7-14 08:40

First of all, having kids in NOT an investment. If it is then it could be the worse investment for most people, no doubt about it. To me raising kids is an instinct. You want to see your next generation grows and suceeds. There's a big problem with kids in HK and it doesn't mean it's the same everywhere, at least not in here yet. Kids have better family values here than in HK. Honestly, I can't stand the new generation in HK, no matter the parents or the kids. I even think that they deserve to have this kind of kids because it's mostly their fault.

作者: daimo 時間: 2009-7-14 08:53

it might sound 9 ng dap 8, but IMO ...

if one wants to maintain his dignity and happiness, one should have no expectations from anyone. (that means everything granted is a bonus!) It applies to both parents and children.

作者: starbug 時間: 2009-7-14 09:13

唔係呀嘛? 我起碼有十年冇聽過有父母提"養兒防老"呢樣嘢.
仲係咁諗嗰D都要再教育喇.

作者: siumaibb 時間: 2009-7-14 09:25

我覺得新一代普遍係缺乏傳統既道德(包括孝義)觀念，我都覺rick講得岩，子不教父之過。

作者: J.J. 時間: 2009-7-14 11:41

Q: 誰惹來的禍呢？
A: Human nature

作者: playingtoy 時間: 2009-7-14 15:54

it might sound 9 ng dap 8, but IMO ...

if one wants to maintain his dignity and happiness, one should have no expectations from anyone. (that means everything granted is a bonus!) It applies to bot ...
daimo 發表於 2009-7-14 09:53

用血緣關係黎維繫社會架構。「人類同盟會」偉大副產品。

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