Lik

Nam (and probably everyone else),

As you read the book, may I remind you that the book is written from the perspective of 趙紫陽 alone, and therefore is likely to carry at least a little bit of bias? There is certainly a lot of good detail and information there, but do not take everything at face value. Being a wise and sophisticated person means you have to be vigilant about exercising your own judgement at all times. This is not a book you just read. It's something that requires you to constantly think about what is being said and come up with the best conclusion based on what you know.

-Lik

Lik

The true situation is not completely as same as what you said here. If you look further what happend around China and in other provinces, and what people outside of of Beijing City (thousand miles away) did during that period. You will know China was actually in a dangerous situation. If you saw the clip of 李敖, you should be able to get an idea. If you look further to other materials, you should have a better understanding.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 03:36

Yes, there were many protests around the country, but does that justify the CCP using real bullets and tanks to viciously crack down on and murder the students and public at and near Tiananmen?

I dare you to say yes, you cold blooded monster. No logical justification can be said to defend the sins that CCP committed.

-Lik

Lik

Can I ask a question? If CCP believed the country was in a crisis of collapsing, do you think it would use any force that is necessary to restore the order and deal with the consequence later? Do you think other countries will do differently if they are under the same situation?

That is very likely what Elder Deng had in mind, and hence the iron fisted bloody approach to massacre the students. Would other countries do the same? Some might, but many more will not. Martial law will likely be imposed. Batons, water canons, rubber bullets will be the weapons of choice of the anti-riot police. But what did the CCP use? Live ammunition and tanks. Even in the recent riots in France and Thailand over the last several years, did you see the same mass murder taking place?

There is no need to look further. Just look at our neighbour – USA. It had not only done the same thing (it was not even a movement to overthrow the government), but it invaded other countries and overthrew the governments of other countries as well for the great and mighty  reason – to protect the American people, the Freedom, and the Democracy which many people had admired and praised.rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 15:10

I like it when people compare the US to China, thinking that it can act as some sort of justification for the CCP's sins. Assuming that the US' Iraq campaign is a sin, does it justify CCP's crimes as well? More importantly, there is no end to lobby groups and harsh criticisms on the Bush administration for the wars. The US does not silence such opposition in any way. Does the same happen in China? Can 6.4 be mentioned? What of the Tiananmen mothers' requests? Why are there house arrests for sensitive figures?

The most basic and fundamental human rights are sorely lacking in China. No logical argument/discussion can be made against something as basic and simple as that.

-Lik

Lik

If I were Elder Deng, I would sack Li Peng and talk to the students with an open mind. The students have proven their qualities to be a peaceful bunch, as did the majority of the public. They had an agenda with requests and demands, and their pledges are legitimate ones. 趙紫陽 might have had a chance to sooth the students through negotiation had he had Elder Deng's support. Even in the final stages of the conflict, I would never have authorized the use of real ammunition and tanks on the students.

A couple of things worked against Elder Deng. As much of a genius and a revolutionary as he was, he was turning old and stubborn. He had been in power for too long, and everyone knows absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Chinese mindset of an ever-ruling emperor corrupted his thinking as well and fueled his cravings to cling onto power. Last but not least, the inherently flawed system of how the CCP worked instilled fear of losing power into every high ranking leader at the time -- in the old old CCP, once you have forfeited power, you run a high risk of getting "challenged", denounced, humiliated, and possibly death.

The country of China will not fall. With a 5000 year history on our backs, I think history has proven me correct. Governments may come and go, but so what? Chinese need to get used to the idea that the Party is not the country. The governing party is only there to govern with the interests of the country, not their own party agenda, in mind. Their primary job is to steer the country in the right direction, not to remain in power forever. As an extreme example that failed miserably, you need to look no further than North Korea. Kim Jong Il's government exists only to keep himself (and his successor) in power. His government is NOT interested in the doing what is best for his country.

In any case, the Tiananmen students were not out to topple the government in the first place. They wanted change and political reform, but they didn't ask for the government to topple.

-Lik

Lik

對一隻只會擦鞋嘅可憐蟲奴才來講，領導人嘅天威當然係不可犯，而我所講嘅其他說話亦為於一個你無法明白嘅層次。

算啦，唔講喇～ 反正比你高級同有見識果個都走咗咯。

-力

Lik

And one more thing. Contrary to what you have repeated shown in various threads and posts, I would never underestimate India and its people. Their country is rich with history, and their citizens are as resourceful and creative as Chinese. And may I remind you, China is NOT the only rapidly developing country with a robust economy. India is not that much further behind.

-Lik

Lik

其實好簡單，你所有嘅論點，聚即至最後嘅呢一句：

Elder Deng had said – “穩定壓倒一切”. Do you understand why he said so and what he mean and under what situation he said that?rockypath 發表於 2009-6-6 23:52

就反映晒你同我嘅分別：你堂而皇之咁話 "國家穩定" 比其他一切 -- 包括人命同無辜嘅犧牲 -- 都來得重要，而小弟則覺得人命凌駕於所謂嘅 "國家穩定"。你可以話我唔識大體，但我會話我寧願唔識大體都好過你冷血無人性！

再者，從中共建黨六十年重複不段嘅事實我地可以見到，老鄧同其他領導人口中所講嘅 "國家穩定壓倒一切" 其實只係為咗保住佢地自己能夠繼續掌權嘅堂皇藉口。唔好唔記得，自毛賊開始，共產黨領導層裡面任何人一旦失勢嘅話，下場一般都係極為悲慘。老鄧深受呢個信念嘅荼毒，所以當然係會不擇手段咁去保住自己嘅權來保住自己。

再講，中國會分裂？漢人不瀏都信奉大一統主意，而內蒙古嘅人口亦早已被漢化，變成漢人遠遠多過蒙古人。新疆果邊無錯係有啲東突厥組織成日搞搞震，但新疆嘅漢族人口比例亦非常高（好似接近一半？），要分裂成功絕對唔係一件容易嘅事。極其量會走人嘅多數只係小西藏，而並非大西藏區。從一個經濟角度來睇，西藏每年都用中央好多錢，係一個經濟負擔而並非收入來源。小弟唔贊成藏獨，只係支持西藏藏人自決。如果人地藏人自己係想離開中共嘅話，你咪由得佢走囉？相反嘅，如果藏人想留，咁自然係無任歡迎。

講來講去，以國家穩定來做血腥鎮壓同屠殺學生嘅借口都係講唔通。最少，咁樣嘅藉口唔會被有血性嘅人認同。

-力

Lik

If you think I am merely writing to defend myself for the sake of defending myself, you're free to think that. But I'd tell you that is not my goal.

You also need to reread my previous post b/c I said the CCP leaders are using "stability" as their excuse to ensure their own and the CCP's continual stay in power. In nowhere did I say they were doing this for the economy. Nice attempt in trying to frame me for something I didn't say though. Haha~

As I wrote in the previous post, it is highly unlikely that China will collapse in the same way as USSR did. The ethnic make up of USSR is vastly different since people in those regions have a strong sense of territoriality and individual ethnicity. Except for Tibet, China no longer has that because most other regions have been too heavily Han-ized. Did you even read my post, man?!

It is true that Elder Deng was the prime initiator of both economic and political reforms. I think it was him who introduced the 2-term/10 years thing for party leaders, and for that he must be applauded. But at the same time, the pace of his political reforms were too slow. And as I was saying in the previous post, even though he introduced the 2-term rule into the party, he was too corrupted by the absolute power he enjoyed while he was in the leader seat to relinquish that very same power. (Again, did you even bother reading or understanding my previous post?)

Except for the most fundamental right to live, human rights have not improved much at all in China. In fact, on many fronts there have actually been huge setbacks. Freedom of speech and open press is non-existent. Freedom to assemble is non-existent. Religious freedom is heavily controlled (by an atheist party, I might add). Property protection is non-existent precisely when you need it most. If Chinese are satisfied to enjoy only the same living rights as herds of farm animals, then by all means, human rights in China is totally acceptable.

-Lik

Lik

Chobit,

本來我今朝好唔得閒，但係見到你個 post 就真係火都來埋。因為你身為人父，所以我就問你呢個問題：假如有個死靚仔今日爆咗入你屋企，用槍虐殺咗你個小朋友，然後再用架車輾過佢條屍。你自己雖然無親身睇見件凶案嘅發生，但你身邊嘅親朋戚友就親眼見到，而且亦有埋 video 同相片，但廿年來條友佢一直到逍遙法外，而且仲做埋國際公司總裁。佢嘅員工有啲話廿年前嘅凶案無發生，有啲人話如果唔係廿年前條友隊 lum 咗你個仔嘅話，佢都唔會發奮向上爬，取得今日嘅成就。而每年你想去拜你個仔嘅時候，佢公司嘅人都會阻止你咁做，唔俾你出街。我問你，你仲會唔會講你以上講過嘅說話？！

我唔係要咀咒你個小朋友；我只係想指出，以上發生嘅就係每一個天安門母親二十年來每一日都不停面對嘅殘酷事實！呢個就係中共政府！

-力

Lik

Chobit,

我諗我剛才個 post 嘅語氣因為火燒心而用得太重，首先響呢度同你 say 個 sorry。之不過語氣雖然差，但過中嘅比喻卻係千真萬確。

希望你能夠對件事再思考一吓。

-力