Lik

Scour Craigslist and look for an old 20D, an old XT, or and old XTi. When you've developed some sense of what you're doing behind one of those cameras, then it's time to re-consider what you should buy (and chances are, it wouldn't be another camera body).

-Lik

Lik

I wonder, in what progress did the "old hand" go thru in order to level up from "new hand" to "old hand"? Why new hand can't use a decent DSLR to start with?
Ultraman 發表於 2010-1-30 01:24

Of course a newbie can always start with a top of the line camera. But the very definition of a newbie means that he is completely new to the task, and has very little knowledge in the skill he is trying to refine. As such, a high end camera will be completely wasted on the newbie since he can't even get the basics right. But hey, if you can afford the dough, nobody is gonna stop you from contributing to the country's GDP.

It's exactly the same in everything else -- will a newbie driver know how to properly drive a high powered sports car? Will a first time computer user know how to take advantage of the latest CPU and high end video card? Will a tone-deaf person be able to appreciate the richness in a high end hi-fi system? Will a newbie golfer know how to use a full set of Callaway?

Most of us live with limited means. If this doesn't apply to you, buy top of the line stuff every single time.

-Lik

Lik

I really don't see why a new hand shouldn't get a beginner level DSLR to start.
Ultraman 發表於 2010-1-30 22:33

Dude,

You know, I just find it funny that you keep arguing for argument's sake.

Of course there is nothing wrong with a newbie getting a brand spanking new entry level dSLR to play with. There is nothing wrong with a new (motorcycle) rider wanting to pick up a litre sportsbike or a big hog after they received their brand spanking new licence. For that matter, there is nothing wrong with a newbie driver going to the Mercedes dealers to pick up an AMG C63 as their first car either.

The only "problem" with this approach, going the brand spanking new route, is, buying new and jumping into the deep end first costs money, and for most people, moula is a limited commodity. Of course, there are lots of people in this world with more $$ than they have brains...

So ya, go buy new and don't look back~!

-Lik

Lik

Dude,

You think I am being extreme? Take a look at the hard numbers yourself:

brand new Canon Rebel XSi w/ 18-55 IS kit lens: $700+tax
used Canon 30D body only: $425 no tax -- can probably bargain him down to $400

The XSi is newer, but the 30D will easily trump the XSi in features, capability, and usability. It all boils down to the buyer paying less for a similar or better product. It's exactly the same reason why people saying buying a lightly used 2nd hand car is a much smarter buy than paying for a brand spanking new vehicle. It's also the same reason why every veteran (motorcycle) rider will recommend a newbie rider to start off on a second hand beat up newbie bike before they move on to something bigger and better.

-Lik

Lik

I didn't see you guys suggested an used or a second hand DSLR, but a brand new prosumer.
Ultraman 發表於 2010-1-31 01:23

See post #4:

Scour Craigslist and look for an old 20D, an old XT, or and old XTi. When you've developed some sense of what you're doing behind one of those cameras, then it's time to re-consider what you should buy (and chances are, it wouldn't be another camera body).

-Lik
Lik 發表於 2010-1-29 23:46

And then see post #17 where Chobit made a good point of caution about used camera gear:

Depends on how much money you can save.., craigslist is a good souce.. yet.. it can be risky, since I know people out there selling heavily used old DSLR, and there is very little way you can tell if it's about to die or not..

EL
chobit 發表於 2010-1-30 17:36

It's true that some used gear have been heavily used (or even abused), which is why the buyer have to exercise caution before they buy. While you can't always inspect the shutter count on a particular camera, general wear and tear is pretty easy to see. (Actually, there are programs like EOS Info that allows you to check the camera's shutter count.) Last but not least, I am always surprised by the number of mint condition, minimally used camera bodies selling for cheap out there -- 2000 shots 20D because the owner upgraded to a 40D; 4000 shots 30D because the owner upgraded to 50D; 3000 shot XTi because the owner upgraded to a 7D.

Unless you know well enough about cars, I won't suggest a "newbie" to buy used cars cuz in case the car break down in the middle of the road or something happens, they will have no idea what's going on and what to do. But in fact, I will suggest them to get a new car from any dealer, in case anything happens, they are "hand-tail-free" and simply take the car to the dealer and get it fixed.
Ultraman 發表於 2010-1-31 01:28

If you were to logically think about this for just a little longer, you'd realize that:

1) most people are not experts on cars
2) on any given day, there are far more people buying used cars than there are buying new
3) most cars run well enough that they don't require frequent repairs

You know, I really hate to bust you like this all the time.

-Lik

Lik

Some people will NEVER buy used electronics.  It's their preference and in their blood, it's not about right or wrong.
daimo 發表於 2010-1-31 11:05

And cheapa$$es like me are extremely thankful of that because it means we have access to mint condition and minimally used electronics that allows us to streeeeeeeeeeetch our dollars. Same goes for cars and many other big ticket items.

-Lik

Lik

I am not opposed to new photographers buying dSLR at all. In fact, did you ever see me advocate that at any point in this thread? What I am recommending against, however, is that newbies go out and buy a brand new entry level dSLR because there is no shortage of quality 2nd hand cameras out there that'll offer 1) lower prices and/or 2) better features. If the new photographer has no means of sourcing those 2nd hand dSLRs, then go ahead and buy new. But Craigslist and BCCamera forum are popular places where you can often find a lot of good deals on mint condition 2nd hand camera products.

On the part about me being smart -- I honestly do not believe I am smart at all. I have seen and personally known far too many people that are infinitely smarter than I can ever hope to be. However, based on the stuff you write and the empty arguments you put forth time and again, I am fairly certain that I am quit bit smarter than you are.

-Lik

Lik

My concern:
i) Since you people assume "newbie" knows nothing about photography, how can he/she examine the condition of an used camera which is selling by a private/an individual seller (something from the sites you mentioned)? Yes, one might spend less but turn out getting a piece of garbage.
ii) Is it safer to buy used item from a shop that carries certain kind of warranty?
Ultraman 發表於 2010-1-31 22:33

Sigh...

dSLR don't really contain any user serviceable parts at all. Entry level models has more plastic parts, but the mid level dSLR line are built *very* solidly (at least, this is true of both Canon and Nikon bodies). If the camera has been subjected to abuse during its previous ownership, you can easily tell by a careful inspection. Does the battery compartment cover close positively? Does the memory card cover feel loose and flappy when you close it? Does the shutter button click smoothly and positively, returning to its full height upon release, or does it get stuck after it has been depressed? Is the metal lense mount badly scratched, chipped, or otherwise dinged up? Do the lens contacts look worn out? Does the shutter clicking sound seem crisp, or does it sound like it's ready to fall apart any moment? Does the hot shoe mount have a lot of scratches (signs of frequent flash inserts and removal)? Does the tripod mounting hole and nearby area have scratches and dings?

If you are buying lenses, you are going to check the glass for clarity, right? You should also check for dust spots and inspect the electrical contacts and mounting ring. Does the zoom and focus rings turn easily and smoothly? Does it focus correctly? You are gonna check the actual operation of the items before you pay, right?

Last but not least, does the seller seem like he is an honest enough person that wouldn't lie about the thing he is trying to sell you?

None of these are rocket science type of observations -- just typical caveat emptor type of thing to do when you buy anything of value.

The only thing you can't tell for certain is the number of shutter actuations on the camera, but this is generally not a problem. People with entry level model cameras generally don't take a lot of pictures -- it is extremely rare to see those cameras with more than 20k shutter actuations (4k to 9k seems to be the norm), and those cameras' shutters are rated between 50k to 100k actuations (depending on the models). Mid level dSLRs have shutters that are mostly rated at 100k actuations. If the camera has really been used that much, you simply can't miss the amount of wear and tear on the camera's body.

I haven't bought used from a camera store in a long, long time, but from what I have seen and remember, the used products they carry tend to be much older, and generally look like they have been very well-used. Also, they are usually not that cheap because it is expensive for the store to maintain such an inventory. Most importantly, I wonder how much of a warranty the store will give you nowadays -- 30 days, tops? And if it breaks during that time, good luck trying to get your money back -- you'll probably be offered in-store credits only.

-Lik

Lik

Long enough which I didn't go all thru.
But if a "newbie" can do all these, I really don't understand why some people suggest a prosumer over a DSLR.
Ultraman 發表於 2010-2-1 00:15

LOL~

You asked me for an answer, and I gave it to you. And this is what you tell me.

I rest my case.

-Lik

Lik

To compare auto transmission with 棍仔車, you should compare AF with manual camera. You might be an expert in photography, but low common sense.
Ultraman 發表於 2010-2-1 12:01

Doh~

auto tranny = prosumer DC
manual tranny = dSLR

When you can't even see how the analogy compares, why do you even bother to write back?

Can't help it when people just like to make a fool out of themselves...

-Lik