BiscottiGelato

I agree that NPP is a total political move against China. The stuff LXB wrote can be consider as treason just like Julianne Assange's Wikileak can be considered as espionage to the US. Giving NPP to LXB is a total disrespect of Chinese law. It's just like supporting Wikileak, a total disrespect
to the US bureaucracy. Obviously tho there indeed is a lot of voices for Assange to get NPP for 2011. But the fact is LXB violated Chinese law knowingly, and Assange is playing with fire against the US instead. All the same.

Obviously the way China is treating it is very naive. They are totally falling into the trap that the Western world have set up for China. The over-reaction from China (total censorship, etc) is only going to draw further international criticism on them.

I agree on basic human rights, and is not saying all these to give a break to China for it. I do tho, believe that change will take time, and asking for an immediate and dramatic transformation is not realistic. Russia did change from centralized power to democracy. But it took a economic and political collapse for that to happen. Is that what we want for China? Russia today is still corrupt, in many aspects poor. A lot of the thinking behind their regime is still the same as the old Soviet regime. It's not as glorious as one thinks.

While criticizing China for their lack of liberty, human rights, freedom of speech and their naive over-reaction. I'd criticize the Western world more so for 100s of years of suppression on China, and their continual propaganda on the country and their people.

BiscottiGelato

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你没脑咖？
kingkong123 發表於 2010-12-12 00:52

文化收養顯而易見. 好難有意義咁作出討論.

To expect China to adopt Democracy and uphold Civil Liberty with the highest regard any time soon is simply unrealistic. Excessive repulsion to the CCP regime will only make them mistrust and even more reluctant in give up power. It is human nature to try to preserve the status quo. The corruption cannot be eliminated overnight. Just screaming and yelling will not improve China.

It seems Premier Wen might have the heart required to slowly transform China. But the CCP bureaucracy is huge. It takes more than 1 man to get the job done, and there won't be a 180 degree reversal overnight.

What I think is the LXB fiasco is way over blown, as intended by the ones who planned the entire drama by deciding to give him NPP in the first place. Separatism clearly is not something CCP will tolerate one bit. As we know freedom of speech only goes so far, even for the hypocritical US over the case for WikiLeak. The fight for Civil Liberty would be better spent on cases like the 3/6 Baby Formula guy. Fighting for LXB is a lost cost IMO.

It will take a lot of effort and time to transform China. Much of CCP would need to be replaced with fresh ideas through education system of the free world (not just 'Western'). Such replacement will probably only happen through attrition, as we know there is no way to boot the oldies out otherwise. Much of China will need to have much higher standard in terms of moral regards and education in order to allow for greater Civil Liberty and maybe anything that resembles Democracy.

BiscottiGelato

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    退一万步讲，就算西方国家系心怀不轨，别有用心甘又点啊？

只要让中国人有人 ...
kingkong123 發表於 2010-12-12 00:52

So you think that economics and standards of living can be conceded as long as Civil Liberty and Democracy is achieved? The Western world is trying to use these as handles to deter China from gaining even more in terms of global economic and political influence. I think a lot of people in China will disagree with you in that it is OK for China to bend over to foreign interest as long as Civil Liberty and Democracy is achieved.

Besides, it's not like conceding to foreign interests will actually bring Human Rights and working Democracy to China anyways...

BiscottiGelato

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    I respect you for your wealth of education, I just do not understand why ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2010-12-12 08:16

I am not saying China would turn into chaos if democracy mysteriously happens overnight. Even tho I'd say based on the education level of China, when you extend out to really rural areas, I don't know if a centralized government would be better or a democracy would be better...

But my point is, I just don't see how democracy is going to happen overnight in China. Why and how would the current regime give up power? They give it up just because they are nice and give Democracy as a Chirstmas gift to China? How long did it take for Deng to turn back Mao's system? And obviously, to instigate radical changes it will take more than 1 person's will to push it through, you are asking for a lot of people in power to give up their power. I just fail to see under what scenario that this can happen overnight, or over any short period of time (anything under 10 years).

Second only to the era that Deng was in power, the current regime in China probably is bringing in the most rapid pace of developemnt in both the economy and also in civil liberty to China. Counting from the period after the death of Mao, the pace of development in China for both aspects can probably be considered as a miracle given the population being involved.

From my limited knowledge in various foreign history, there probably is no precedent example of a centralized communist government changing into a democratic system without going through some sort of economic hardship, political collapse or maybe outright war. I applaud the current CCP's regime's effort in attempting at a slow transition (at least some in there probably is attempting that, definately not all). Even if they fail I really won't blame them for that. Regardless, I don't think there's much people that'd wish for either economic hardship or war for China. Given that China seems to be fairly politically stable, a rapid change to democracy without blood being shed is unlikely.

I think much of the current criticism is misplaced, esp for the LXB incident which I think is purely provoked by Western powers. More-over, the value that LXB brought towards democracy IMO is limited, if any at all. All the recent turmoil probably makes CCP officials to place even more mistrust at the public and the Western media at large, becoming even more reluctant to give up power. And definately, he did not bring any contribution to peace, that's for sure.

Obviously there's still a lot of things that CCP did completely wrong in almost any one's opinion. The first one to blame, probably is Mao himself. For reigning terror to China for some 20/30 years. Probably destroyed another 100 years of progress right there... For the current incident however, LXB saw it coming when he did what he did. I can't exactly blame CCP for the predictable reaction that they are taking on both the LXB and NPP fiasco.

BiscottiGelato

So the whole world should just  stand  back and patiently
observe  the CCP to continue violating hum ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2010-12-13 16:55

Anybody can scream and yell 'almost' everything and anything they want. Freedom of speech ma~. You are entitled to your opinion. I won't call you names nor put up huge red text in response when I disagree. Don't worry

I'm just saying much of the criticism (not ALL, I said MUCH) from the Western world is largely misplaced. Especially on the LXB fiasco, which is hypocritical, and heck probably a Western power instigated conspiracy. When the 2 Physics Nobel Laureates criticized the NPP, some of what they said is almost quoted right out of my brain,

"In the past 10 years, China has developed not only economically, but even the strongest human rights supporter would agree also human rights have improved. Why do we need to distort this?"

Professor Novoselov defended China, insisting Western criticism of the communist regime was misplaced.

China is still far from ideal. Constructive criticsm is obviously valuable to it's continual improvement. I do however find a lot of, IMO unreasonable criticisms that's either non-factual (CNN BS), unrealistic (expect China to inflate currency 20% overnight or they are currency manipulator, expect China to treat all incidents as if they are a democracy, etc), and a lot that are purely subjective and unfounded all together just due to Western biases and ignorance.

One can say China should have more Civil Liberty and Freedom of Speech, such that LXB shouldn't get arrested, family would be able to attend Nobel Award Ceremony, etc. Realistically, is anyone surprised when he's arrested? I assure you that if Juliann Assange is in domestic USA he would've got enough charges on his book so that even if he doesn't get convicted, he'd be jailed for long enough based on risk that he'll escape from US soil when waiting for hearings, such that he won't be released even if he wins the NPP for 2011. Any support for Assange to win the NPP might be associated with terrorism activities, etc etc...

I'd be a lot more concerned about the ever degrading, hypocratic propaganda Western countries and it's ever dwindling Civil Liberty before breaking too much sweat of LXB and China.

BiscottiGelato

Far from ideal?
The CCP is turning the clock back to pre-1989.
Back then  China was still poor, now  ...
somewhereintime 發表於 2010-12-14 10:49

It's your opinoin that China is still pre-1989 economically or in terms of civil liberty. A lot of people will disagree.

Pressure or challenge is good, if founded based on fact and are realistically constructive in nature. A lot of them aren't and probably make the people in power even more weary on giving up power.

The best way to instigate meaningful change, IMO, is education and time. With more and more top tier Chinese in leadership position receiving education in free thinking institution across the world, and the common people getting more basic education. I'm sure change, albeit slowly, will come. I personally hope to see more slow, but steady improvement than to expect dramatic changes, which usually accompanies catastrophies as evident through out history.

BiscottiGelato

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BG, what you said is also almost quoted right out of my brain.
daimo 發表於 2010-12-14 11:13

Haha. I'd take that as an agreement and approval.

BiscottiGelato

Exactly. And this is especially difficult in post-Cultural Revolution China because all the proper  ...
Lik 發表於 2010-12-14 11:55

That's why China is at least 200 years behind. 100 from occupation and invasion, another 100 by Mao's Cultural Revolution and Big Leap Forward and other destructive policies. IMO the current pace of recovery is not too bad already. Obviously kinda like your salary, the faster the increase the better. But gotta be realistic sometimes too~

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對此
你點睇
sheep 發表於 2010-12-14 14:11

I don't know if it's true. Neither do I know the context of the quote.

But based just on the face of the words, of course it's a very pessimistic view. His pessmism on his own kind is very sad.